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Thread: Bad Intercity Transit! Bad! Bad!

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    So I went downtown today to pull out some money, and opted to ride the bus back partway home. I took advantage of the nice weather to OC my 6" stainless Security 6 (ironically, it's the Bicentennial Edition, rollmarked "Made in the 200th year of American Liberty") As I walked towards my bus, a driver noticed my revolver and asked the usual stupid question of "Is that real?" I just smiled, and said "yup", and kept going to my bus.

    I boarded my bus, which was also having mechanical problems, and their unarmed and contract security told me I had to get off. I got off, and told him to call the director of the system, and pointed out the law was on my side.

    Few minutes later, a supervisor pulls up, and manages to determine that yes I'm right, they are wrong and makes a half assed effort at apologizing.

    I have sent a rather nasty letter to the admin of IT, and demanded an apology. Should be interesting to watch them cover their butts.

    EDIT, dunno why I typed I have not... lol

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    That keeps happening to you.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    That keeps happening to you.*
    Shall we discuss what used to keep happening to you? Methinks the whole 6'9" dude with a overgrown .357 might be half the problem... But damnit, I *like* that revolver. And I'm not switching to the Smith 64-3 just so the liberals don't get as upset.

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    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    You could make a point of it so as to bring it to their attention. Perhaps it would make it easier for you or another OCer in the future?

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    Son_of_Perdition wrote:
    You could make a point of it so as to bring it to their attention. Perhaps it would make it easier for you or another OCer in the future?
    The point is, I did. Over two years ago. Right after I started the process to tidy things up with OPD over OC. IT just screwed up this time. They have documentation that this is legal, they have told their staff about it. Someone screwed up.

    As far as making things easier for other OC'rs... I have. A lot. This is just a refresher course for IT.

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    OOPS. Didn't know you've been down this road before. I kinda forgot all the training bulletins covering this too.
    Hang them from their underdeveloped testies.

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    It was IT staff that went to the security guard. I contacted all their operational staff and raised a fuss. See what comes of it. I demanded a written apology and retraining of their staff.

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    Regular Member Son_of_Perdition's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Son_of_Perdition wrote:
    You could make a point of it so as to bring it to their attention. Perhaps it would make it easier for you or another OCer in the future?
    The point is, I did. Over two years ago. Right after I started the process to tidy things up with OPD over OC. IT just screwed up this time. They have documentation that this is legal, they have told their staff about it. Someone screwed up.

    As far as making things easier for other OC'rs... I have. A lot. This is just a refresher course for IT.
    Sorry, I'm new

    Talk about a pain. It might be a little inconvenient but can you keep that Documentation on you when you ride a Bus? Yes I know, it is not your job to train them. And I only say this based on my own experiences of a sorta similar nature. I found it to be easier to adapt topeoples cluelessness then fight them without proof of my justification.

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    12 years ago, I was head of Security for IT (Private company), I was in charge of the Oly Center as well as the Lacey Center....

    The company I worked for is no longer the firm that is there, but IT KNOW's that it's legal, all the drivers KNOW that it's legal and the supervisors KNOW it's legal. When I worked there, we had at least one MWAG call over the security radio per day... After a while we had them all trained well enough that it was just an informational call, and no action was needed. (action, like informing the driver to relax, and that it's legal).

    I am glad the supervisor was able to get it straightened out... Pains me to see they have reverted back to paranoia after I worked so hard to get that place secure, safe and happy...
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    Well 4 years ago when I moved to Oly, IT had a no gun policy. I managed to straighten them out, and have the bulletin they sent out to their staff two and a half years ago. Once the supervisor found someone who knew what was up, everything was fine. But it's annoying as all heck to have to go through that.

    Perdition, I'm not going to carry documents. I don't have to. IT has them all on file, and I have spoken to their director about it before. On top of it, once they start acting stupid, they aren't gonna care what papers I have to show them. It's not worth the trouble lol.

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    True. The only time I carried documentation was to SEATAC airport. I carried for reference while waiting for the flight with the women and children. Not mine, just great friends I was picking up. I had to have something to read and TSA was all over me watching.

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    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Bookman wrote:
    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    amzbrady wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
    Better question, why would you risk your life over property that you do not even own?

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
    Better question, why would you risk your life over property that you do not even own?
    No, it's a legality question. Legally can an unarmed security gaurd chase, tackle, detain, and handcuff a theif?

    Edited for second question. Is there such thing in WA, as a handcuff card to own handcuffs and show you have been trained to use them? Yeah I know sounds stupid, but there is a reason I ask.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Bookman wrote:
    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    I work security as well, and unfortunately he is kinda right. There are a lot of people in our business that are complete tool sheds.


    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    amzbrady wrote:
    Bookman wrote:
    Aryk45XD wrote:
    What else would you expect from unarmed security. Their whole job is a farse. I always noticed that type of security, for the most part, would usually either freak out or look down until I cheerfully greeted them multiple times.
    He was probably new, and didn't know any better. I bet he does now though. If he was rude or confrontational, I vote you should follow up. If it seems he learned something, I'd say leave it at that.
    BTW, you do seem to get a lot of the yahoos. Makes me kinda glad I'm short and skinny.
    I work unarmed security. Everyone I work with knows it's legal. My Security Manager and at least two of my coworkers are members of this board. We KNOW OC is legal and we support it. We also know whether or not guns are allowed on a particular site.

    I would suggest that you stop painting with such a broad brush.
    Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
    Depends on the situation and on company policy.

    Legally speaking for the most part security has no more authority to arrest then anyone else. (must witness a felony)
    one exception to this is If you are working for a retail store and have probable cause that someone has stolen something you can detain them by reasonable means on the store property or in the immediate area, but the same goes for anyone who works for the store not just security.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    Book, I paint with a broad brush because there are little of the educated and motivated personal out there that really know the law and what they are entitled to. That is an observation I have found from my experiences. It's the same as the uneducated people in this city that don't realize open carry is legal. It's not their fault they are not motivated to learn what the laws are. I did not say all unarmed security is uneducated in this right...just that their job is farse.
    Could an unarmed security stop a threat physically with exteme measures without losing their job? Unless they work for the grestest company ever... I didn't think so.
    I have more of a right to stop somebody from a crime than most security do. That's a really bad realization in America.

    ETA: I'm really interested in Amz question about cuffs. I have been through the cuffs and ziptie training and would not mind having zipties on me. I keep them close at work and home, but would really like to have them on my person.

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    There is no cuff card in WA. I own many sets. I have been trained to use them too (along with zip-ties).

    The main thing is that if you use cuffs, you better know how, why and when. Because if you cause injury to the person, or unlawfully detain them, you will be feeling that cold steel around your wrists.

    To answer the question about physical force, you have whatever rights are granted to you by the client as well as the employer. We used to work security at a bar, with the interest to protect the patrons as well as the customers / employees. You can bet your a** we used whatever force was necessary to remove / detain a person causing bodily harm. Another site, IT for example, was a hands off, period.. But after a few drivers got assaulted, that changed. Both of those were un-armed sites. We also had a few sites that were strictly observe and report... no contact with the offender, not "stop or I'll say stop again".. Just call the police and watch, record. Be a good witness.
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    Massivedesign; I wouldn't be surprised if IT has gone hands off again. I've seen a few interesting altercations down there, and all I've ever seen the security do was the "stop or I'll say stop again" routine.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    END_THE_FED wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    Question? As unarmed security, If you see someone steal something from a store, do you or can you, give chase,tackle, detain, and handcuff them?
    Depends on the situation and on company policy.

    Legally speaking for the most part security has no more authority to arrest then anyone else. (must witness a felony)
    one exception to this is If you are working for a retail store and have probable cause that someone has stolen something you can detain them by reasonable means on the store property or in the immediate area, but the same goes for anyone who works for the store not just security.
    I have stopped dozens and dozens in 20 years of retail. I am the manager and have the same authority as unarmed security (which I have never had at a store I have worked for).

    "Probable cause" is not a guiding principle in detaining someone. At least not that terminology.

    There are 5 elements of an arrest: (to hold up in court)

    1) You must see the suspect enter the area (aisle, section) without the item in their hand.

    2) You must see the suspect take the item from the shelf and must be able to identify the item.

    3) You must see the suspect conceal the item. (some suspects don't conceal they just walk out with the item in plain view)

    4) You must NEVER lose sight of the suspect. (This is the most difficult)

    5) You must witness the suspect pass the last point of payment.



    If you don't complete all 5 of these items and testify to them you will lose in court. A good manager/security will, once you conceal the item, close the distance and offer customer service and be within a few feet of the suspect at all times. At this point you do not try to follow the suspect from a distance, otherwise you will lose contact with the suspect around and aisle/corner and you will risk the suspect setting the item down and an illegal detainment. Companies payout significant amounts (5k) for illegal detainment when a suspect calls corporate.

    Many times after concealment, I have been right next to the suspect asking them if they need help finding anything. "Can I help you find the "SUNGLASSES"? (stating the item that they concealed) The suspect will take the item out and set it down or hand it to me and leave. This is the ideal situation as they know they were caught and no one is hurt. And, no, you cannot detain them at that point. They did not admit to stealing and they didn't as they did no pass the registers. Yes, it pisses you off but arresting someone, waiting for the police to arrive, filling out paperwork takes a couple of hours and in retail you just don't have time for all of that.

    Funny story:

    I often catch shoplifters when I am shopping (not working and not where I work). I was at Home Depot once shopping. I saw a guy down the aisle sticking several items in his jacket. I told my wife to go get the manager and tell him I was going to be following a shoplifter. She left to find the manager. I followed the thief around the store and to the front end. I realised that the items he took would make the EAS alarm go off at the door. My wife was standing with the manager near the front. I realised that the manager would be unable to stop the thief because of the 5 rules. However, as a customer and not an employee, I could do much more. I walked to the door and waited past the EAS alarm. The thief got to the alarm and it went off and then he started to run. I stuck my foot out and tripped him. SPLAT! face first right onto the concrete! The items he had fell out of his jacket and the manager came over to pick them up.

    The thief at this point is yelling at me that he is going to sue Home Depot for me tripping him. I simply said, "I'm sorry, I don't work here, I am just a customer." I walked back to my wife and finished shopping. The manager picked up his products and told the thief to get the hell out of his store. A little road rash never hurt anyone!
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Massivedesign; I wouldn't be surprised if IT has gone hands off again. I've seen a few interesting altercations down there, and all I've ever seen the security do was the "stop or I'll say stop again" routine.
    Not to toot our horn, but we had that place running well. Most of the riders got along well, they all knew the rules and the drivers and road supervisors could rely upon us. We had some additional "leniency and privileges" after our first year there... After 5 years, when the contract came up for renewal, we didn't get it and from what I heard, went to hell-in-a-handbasket. All over a few bucks. A few drivers (from what I heard) went on a mini-strike to get IT to renew the contract with us...

    Sad, because OTC and LTC are great facilities and a great asset to IT....

    PS - If you are ever on the bus and hear 199 or 299 called out... 199 is security at OTC and 299 is LTC
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Reason I asked is,the 76 station we fuel up the tow trucks at, has a cashier who I think is a compulsive liar. I have caught him ina few already. His last one provoked me askingthis last question about detainment and cuffs. He said he worked for a Wal-mart in the propane tank dept. (first off, their tanks are either empty or the full ones are not their, but another companies exchange service), He said Wal-Mart employed him as security, and he had to take classes and get trained on handcuffs, and has a handcuff card (I have never herd of a handcuff card, much less a wal-mart employee being trained as "security" and being allowed to carry them). Hehad also told me that he had to use them once on someone who tried stealing a tank, He said he tackled them and cuffed them andhad to drag them back to the security office, ( I cant imagine Wal-Mart putting themself in thatkind of positionand opening up a chance for an employee to put themself in harms way), (This guylooks like he mayby wieghs a buck 10, I could probably throw him 10 feet,and couldnt imagine him wrestleing a strong wind and winning, I would think he would break in a tussle)I thought I would ask about the cuff thing before just flat out telling him he's a dumbass and needs to quit puking crap out of his pie hole.

    Edited to add: I dont know about other security firms, but when I worked for Securitas, we were told we were there to observe, not confront. At no time were we to put ourselves in harms way.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  25. #25
    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    My brother worked for Securitas for quite a few years... Up in Auburn and down in Shelton.

    I worked for Capital Security Enforcement (CSE)... Securitas got most of our sites when CSE went belly up.

    There is a Wash. State Criminal Justice Training you can do to get certified on cuffs, OC, Pistol, Taser, baton etc.. But in no means is it a "card". You do get a cute little diploma though lol. Some companies insurance will require certification based upon the gear that the officer is carrying. We had to be cert'd on OC and Cuffs. Pistol cert is mandatory for any armed guard, which I also got.
    www.WaGuns.org

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