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Thread: Stand Your Ground (State Law) vs. Duty to Retreat (City Ordinance)

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Many months ago I was working armed security and had the cops called out to the work site because of a fight. One of them mentioned that in Kalamazoo you have a duty to retreat from a violent attack. I questioned his statement because I thought state law trumps city ordinances. He was being at asshat (acting like he knew everything and I was completely wrong about anything I said) so I discontinued the conversation.

    For some reason I just remembered this and wanted to ask everyone here:

    If a city has a duty to retreat ordinance, does that trump state law? (example: local knife laws)

    Or does Michigan's Stand Your Ground law trump a city ordinance?

    I have my own idea on what the answer is, but I want something to back it up with.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Michigan Public Safety Directive ACT 319 of 1990 MCL 123.1102 says:

    Sec. 2 ALocal Unit of Government shall not impose Special Taxation on, Enact or Enforce any Ordinance or Regulation pertaining to, or Regulate in any other manner the Ownership, Registration, Purchase, Sale, Transfer, Transportation, or Possession of Pistols or other Firearms, Ammunition for Pistols or other Firearms, or Components of Pistols or other Firearms, except as otherwise provided by Federal Law or a Law of this State.

    History: ACT of 1990, 319, Eff. mar. 28, 1991.

    Michgian Self-Defense Act, of ACT 309 of 2006 MCL 780.972 says:

    Sec. 2
    (1) An Individual who has not or is not Engaged in the Commission of a Crime at the time He or She uses Deadly Force may use Deadly Force against another Individual anywhere He or She has the Legal Right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    (a) The Individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of Deadly Force is necessary to prevent the Imminent Death of or Imminent Great Bodily Harm to Himself or Herself or to another Individual.

    (b) The Individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of Deadly Force is necessary to prevent the Imminent Sexual Assault of Himself or Herself or of another Individual.

    (2) An Individual who has not or is not Engaged in the Commission of a Crime at the time He or She uses Force other than Deadly Force may use Force other than Deadly Force against another Individual anywhere He or She has the Legal Right to be with no duty to retreat if He or She honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that Force is necessary to defend Himself or Herself or another Individual from the Imminent Unlawful use of Force by another Individual.

    History: ACT of 2006, 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.

    Although I am not an Attorney..., it is within my Personnal Opinion that ACT 319 of 1990 and ACT 309 of 2006 work together, in tandem, to preclude any Local Ordinance contrary to Michigan State Law on the aforementioned matter.

    The Michigan Public Safety ACTS aforementioned, when weighted against any Local Ordinance,seem to Preempt any such Local Ordinance.






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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    aadvark wrote:
    Michigan Public Safety Directive ACT 319 of 1990 MCL 123.1102 says:

    Sec. 2 A Local Unit of Government shall not impose Special Taxation on, Enact or Enforce any Ordinance or Regulation pertaining to, or Regulate in any other manner the Ownership, Registration, Purchase, Sale, Transfer, Transportation, or Possession of Pistols or other Firearms, Ammunition for Pistols or other Firearms, or Components of Pistols or other Firearms, except as otherwise provided by Federal Law or a Law of this State.

    History: ACT of 1990, 319, Eff. mar. 28, 1991.



    This references only the preemption of local ordinances regarding firearms... it has nothing to do with use of deadly force or the duty to retreat. The following do...

    THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (EXCERPT)
    Act 175 of 1927

    768.21c Use of deadly force by individual in own dwelling; "dwelling" defined.Sec. 21c.
    (1) In cases in which section 2 of the self-defense act does not apply, the common law of this state applies except that the duty to retreat before using deadly force is not required if an individual is in his or her own dwelling or within the curtilage of that dwelling.
    (2) As used in this section, "dwelling" means a structure or shelter that is used permanently or temporarily as a place of abode, including an appurtenant structure attached to that structure or shelter.


    SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 309 of 2006

    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.Sec. 2.
    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.


    SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 309 of 2006

    780.973 Duty to retreat; effect of act on common law.Sec. 3.
    Except as provided in section 2, this act does not modify the common law of this state in existence on October 1, 2006 regarding the duty to retreat before using deadly force or force other than deadly force.


    Please note that none of those reference firearms in any way therefore 123.1102 does not apply.

    Perhaps there is a bit of confusion with assuming a firearm and deadly force are the same thing. They are not.

    Edited to add:
    I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor do I expect to become... an attorney at law.

    Again edited to add:
    I am unaware of any state "preemption" law concerning local ordinances in respect to "deadly force" ordinances and the duty to retreat.

    Does any municipality have ordinances that are more restrictive than state law concerning deadly force/duty to retreat? Please provide a cite.

    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Well Mister Kalamazoo officer, I tried to retreat but he was on me like white on rice. You can ask him but wait... he can't answer you now can he?

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    aadvark also wrote about the Michigan Self-Defense Act

    ***I bolded it..., because; otherwise, others may not see it...***

    ***Revert back to my original Article in this thread!***

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I looked at Kalamazoo's code on line and could not find anything at all concerning this; do you have a link or a copy of the ordinance before we get too far into the discussion? Not doubting that Kalamazoo has this, just hard to comment without it in front of me.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    so the duty to retreat is only waived if a firearm is used and the force is deadly?

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    so the duty to retreat is only waived if a firearm is used and the force is deadly?
    Unless you are being sarcastic... which would be pretty good one...

    No. The use of deadly force is justified when the criteria mentioned in the law governing deadly force is met... and there is no duty to retreat as long as the criteria in the law governing the lack of any duty to retreat is met.

    Firearms, or the lack thereof, have absolutely nothing to do with the deadly force or the duty to retreat laws.

    Deadly force is deadly force regardless of the tool, or lack thereof, used as deadly force. The duty to retreat, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with any tools available.. or unavailable.

    And the firearms preemption law only covers firearms ordinances.... nothing else.

    Or I flunked reading comprehension 101 more than twice!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Bikenut wrote:
    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    so the duty to retreat is only waived if a firearm is used and the force is deadly?
    Unless you are being sarcastic... which would be pretty good one...

    No. The use of deadly force is justified when the criteria mentioned in the law governing deadly force is met... and there is no duty to retreat as long as the criteria in the law governing the lack of any duty to retreat is met.

    Firearms, or the lack thereof, have absolutely nothing to do with the deadly force or the duty to retreat laws.

    Deadly force is deadly force regardless of the tool, or lack thereof, used as deadly force. The duty to retreat, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with any tools available.. or unavailable.

    And the firearms preemption law only covers firearms ordinances.... nothing else.

    Or I flunked reading comprehension 101 more than twice!
    Maybe! If you went to the Evelyn-Woodhead Sped-Ridin Course.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_...Reading_Course
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Original question concerned a Kalamazoo ordinance... has anyone seen a copy of it? Although I enjoy a discussion regarding Michigan law; I'm about ready to call the original issue "non-existent".

    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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