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Response from Intercity Transit

Metalhead47

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G22Paddy wrote:
It's a simple matter of the wording of RCW 9.41.270

"warrants alarm for the safety of other persons"

Nowhere does it say "causes"
Right. I think it was state vs. spencer (or was it cassad?), WA supreme court decision that merely carrying a holstered firearm in the open does not warrant alarm. Plenty of things cause alarm without warranting it (like spiders :what:).
 

.45ACPaddy

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I imagine that the liberty spikes hairstyle would cause alarm to elderly ladies. Heck, Westboro Baptist Church causes alarm to the general public.
 

Metalhead47

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G22Paddy wrote:
Heck, Westboro Baptist Church causes alarm to the general public.
Alarm isn't the word I'd use. Disgust is more in the ballpark, I don't think there's an English word that fully describes the feeling. Oh and a desire to scream "Liars!" and "hypocrites!".:cuss:
 

Ruby

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NavyLT wrote:
You can inform him that causing alarm is not illegal or any fault of yours. The Washington Supreme Court has ruled that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people, therefore, those that it causes alarm in, according to the Supreme Court are unreasonable.
Please cite where this ruling is. I am familiar with the RCW, but you are saying that the Washington Supreme Court HAS RULED that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people. I am not trying to be difficult, I just want to know where I can find this ruling. Thanks.
 

gogodawgs

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Ruby wrote:
NavyLT wrote:
You can inform him that causing alarm is not illegal or any fault of yours. The Washington Supreme Court has ruled that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people, therefore, those that it causes alarm in, according to the Supreme Court are unreasonable.
Please cite where this ruling is. I am familiar with the RCW, but you are saying that the Washington Supreme Court HAS RULED that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people. I am not trying to be difficult, I just want to know where I can find this ruling. Thanks.

Ruby,

The cases 'Casad v Washington' and 'Spencer v Washington' are the two most common.

The are kept here with several other usefull things.

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads
 

Ruby

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gogodawgs wrote:
Ruby wrote:
NavyLT wrote:
You can inform him that causing alarm is not illegal or any fault of yours. The Washington Supreme Court has ruled that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people, therefore, those that it causes alarm in, according to the Supreme Court are unreasonable.
Please cite where this ruling is. I am familiar with the RCW, but you are saying that the Washington Supreme Court HAS RULED that carrying a firearm in a holster does not WARRANT alarm in reasonable people. I am not trying to be difficult, I just want to know where I can find this ruling. Thanks.

Ruby,

The cases 'Casad v Washington' and 'Spencer v Washington' are the two most common.

The are kept here with several other usefull things.

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads
Thanks, Gogo. Which brings up something else for my edification. What is the difference between "causes alarm" and "warrants alarm" as used in the RCW? I thought they were one and the same. Thanks!
 

gogodawgs

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'warrant alarm' means there has to be some specific articulable action....

'causes alarm' is a much lower threshold and someone may be alarmed by the mere sight of a firearm, but the actor did nothing....
 

Ruby

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gogodawgs wrote:
'warrant alarm' means there has to be some specific articulable action....

'causes alarm' is a much lower threshold and someone may be alarmed by the mere sight of a firearm, but the actor did nothing....
Thanks so much. I did go to the site and read Casad and that helped. I am familiar with Spencer because Dave Workman mentions it in his book Washington Gun Rights and Responsibilities. That seems to be a good site and I plan to spend some time there reading. One more question. What is the difference between a published and an unpublished court ruling? It looks like I am going to get an education in "legalese" but I think that's a good thing. Thanks again for your help!
 

gogodawgs

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[align=left]If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness.[/align]
[align=left]Maciolek, at 268 n.3.[/align]
[align=left]
[/align]
[align=left]The above is from 'Spencer' which refers the definition to another case, 'Maciolek', I have highlighted the phrase that the court used. Remeber they refer to the 'reasonable person' definition of 'warrants alarm'.[/align]
 

Ruby

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gogodawgs wrote:


[align=left]If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness.[/align]

[align=left]Maciolek, at 268 n.3.[/align]

[align=left]
[/align]

[align=left]The above is from 'Spencer' which refers the definition to another case, 'Maciolek', I have highlighted the phrase that the court used. Remeber they refer to the 'reasonable person' definition of 'warrants alarm'.[/align]
This really clarifies it for me. Thanks!
 

gogodawgs

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Ruby wrote:
gogodawgs wrote:
'warrant alarm' means there has to be some specific articulable action....

'causes alarm' is a much lower threshold and someone may be alarmed by the mere sight of a firearm, but the actor did nothing....
Thanks so much. I did go to the site and read Casad and that helped. I am familiar with Spencer because Dave Workman mentions it in his book Washington Gun Rights and Responsibilities. That seems to be a good site and I plan to spend some time there reading. One more question. What is the difference between a published and an unpublished court ruling? It looks like I am going to get an education in "legalese" but I think that's a good thing. Thanks again for your help!
Unpublished is a technique the court uses to not use the case as legal precedent. However, in todays day and age of computers the technique is difficult to have the same effectiveness as in the past. While 'technically' it is unpublished and unavailable with precedential value, it shows how the court may react and decide similar cases and defiately shows how to argue the case if you want a similar result. Assuming the same justices are on the court.
 

Ruby

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gogodawgs wrote:
Ruby wrote:
gogodawgs wrote:
'warrant alarm' means there has to be some specific articulable action....

'causes alarm' is a much lower threshold and someone may be alarmed by the mere sight of a firearm, but the actor did nothing....
Thanks so much. I did go to the site and read Casad and that helped. I am familiar with Spencer because Dave Workman mentions it in his book Washington Gun Rights and Responsibilities. That seems to be a good site and I plan to spend some time there reading. One more question. What is the difference between a published and an unpublished court ruling? It looks like I am going to get an education in "legalese" but I think that's a good thing. Thanks again for your help!
Unpublished is a technique the court uses to not use the case as legal precedent. However, in todays day and age of computers the technique is difficult to have the same effectiveness as in the past. While 'technically' it is unpublished and unavailable with precedential value, it shows how the court may react and decide similar cases and defiately shows how to argue the case if you want a similar result. Assuming the same justices are on the court.
I thought it might be something along those lines. Thank you so much for the information, I really appreciate it!
 

since9

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'warrant alarm' means there has to be some specific articulable action....

'causes alarm' is a much lower threshold and someone may be alarmed by the mere sight of a firearm, but the actor did nothing....

This may have been mentioned already, but this article explains the two terms well.

Examples based on the law here in Colorado:

Open carry may cause alarm in citizens unused to seeing it. Cause alarm is not sufficient grounds for LEO intervention, primarily because OC is legal here in Colorado.

Brandishing constitutes "warrant alarm," and meets probable cause requirements for LEO intervention, although allowances are made for the circumstances (defense of self/others in the face of immediate danger).

I do NOT agree that the type of weapon carries warrants alarm, "reasonable person arguement" or not, as that's a slippery slope (fallacious) argument, at best.

I do agree with the author's last two paragraphs:

Conclusion: We neither advocate nor discourage open carry. The advocates maintain that exercising such a right educates the public including law enforcement. Since most people fail to appreciate the level of safety provided by those of us that carry concealed (out of sight, out of mind), carrying openly is a visible reminder that citizens help to deter crime. Open Carry advocates have been writing to local enforcement and many Departments have published training memos in order to avoid stops that violate the rights of armed citizens. See OpenCarry.Org.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for blending in and being prepared to react to an emergency without prospective assailants identifying that you are an armed citizen. All of us should be getting trained in weapons retention and practicing our gun handling skills. Meanwhile, it is good to know that we can get in and out of a car without worrying about what will happen if someone calls 911 when a weapon is inadvertently exposed to the gaze of an alarmed bystander!
 
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