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Thread: City of Roanoke: Parks: Carvins Cove

  1. #1
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Members: Here is a copy of an email I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov. It felt like the operator was "making up the rules" based on personal feelings, rather than laws and facts, so I direct it toward someone whom I hope can be of better help.

    I am wanting to hike the trail systems at Carvins Cove which is property of the City of Roanoke (VA), but because it (1) Has bear & other wild creatures (2) Has may miles of secluded trail systems I am desiring to carry.

    I will post any follow ups that I receive, I home someone with some real knowledge has a real answer.


    HORAH
    Andrew


  2. #2
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    To whom every may be of help,

    I am trying to determine the City of Roanoke's stance of the possession and carry of a firearm either by means
    of lawful open carry or licensed concealed carry within the boundries of any park owned by the City of
    Roanoke.

    It is my understanding that the Carvins Cove hiking trail system falls under the domain of Roanoke City
    Parks & Recreation.

    This evening (Thr Jun 24 2010 at 7:20 pm) I called and posed the question to the officer on duty at
    the published phone number (540) 853-2212. I had to ask 3 times for the City's ordnance regarding
    the restriction of carrying a firearm a park owned by Roanoke City, after being told it "was forbidden".

    The female representative finally put me on hold and returned telling me the ordnance number was 18.2-308.

    This is incorrect information, ordnance 18.2-308 is Virginia State code regarding the issue of
    concealed weapons permit.

    I am asking if someone with knowledge of the laws of federal, state and local can advise me correctly,
    if it is legal or not to carry a firearm in a park owned by the City of Roanoke. I am not inquiring of the
    personal opinion of the justification of carrying a firearm, I am only interested in the printed law.

    Respectfully,
    Andrew Daniel







  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ElevenBravo wrote:
    I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov.*
    That's you problem.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ElevenBravo wrote:
    I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov.*
    That's you problem.
    Aye.

    A city in Virginia can't have a stance on pretty much anything related to firearms except their discharge.
    If the park is city property, preemption applies.
    See 15.2.915... is it bad that I have it memorized?

    From their own website: "Carvins Cove Natural Reserve, located near Hollins University, is the second largest municipal park in the nation."
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Well, I sent the e-mail AFTER I got bad info from the phone call.

    Thanks for the additional information, Im reading that now.

    Andrew



  6. #6
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Found this too, because I know the code number to look under now (This is an education for me, for sure!):

    http://www.paulhager.org/why027.htm

    Thanks to all that are of help, its this kind of communication that makes this forum what I feel, great.

    Cheers,
    Andrew


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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I'm sure you've figured out by now that the City of Roanoke cannot prevent you from carrying (either OC or CC) a firearm in a city park. Check these pages for Premption. Its EVERYWHERE!

    As mentioned above, the ONLY thing about firearms amunicipality can regulate is the DISCHARGE of firearms...

    I do not have any vested interest in the sale of any publication, but I've foundthe Virginia Gun Owner's Guide to be a GREAT reference. I've seen it for sale at every gun show I've attended and also seen it on Amazon (where I got mine).

    http://www.gunlaws.com/vgog.htm

    Also remember that no book or web site can provide the most up-to-date info about the carriage of firearms. YOU are responsible for keeping yourself abreast of the "latest and greatest" rules and regulations by reading the laws of your state.

    Your park looks like a beautiful place for a picnic! If I get out that way, I think I'll bring the family there. My oldest also OC's a .45 , but hers is a full-sized Glock (21SF)and she turns a lot more heads than I do.

    Cheers!

    Mike
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Welcome to OCDO ElevenBravo. Now, time to learn. Police do not have an obligation to answer your questions with regard to the law and there is the distinct possibility that they will not give you a truthful answer even if they know the law. A basic Google search of "Virginia firearm law" and an hour of diligent searching should result in multiple useful links that can help you to decipher the law for yourself or at least put you in touch with some good resources to help you out. Take a bit to do some searching here, get to know the Virginia Citizen's Defense League (VCDL) and take a look at the Virginia State Police website which actually has a pretty good summary of state gun law with reference to the legislative code.

  9. #9
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Make sure you contact me before you come down for a picnic, Ill pack up my fam and we will join you!

    Thanks to all that have responded, it has been a HUGE help! I am ignorant, and if it was not for you folks, Id stay that way!

    Reading the laws, does not make for understanding, so in my case, google would have been a limited amount of help. Having someone that does understand the laws, give it to me in laymen's english, is a huge help!!

    Thanks so much!
    HORAH
    Andrew


  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    As you are probably beginning to discover... the question that really needs to be answered here is (and it is a very important question to one who desires to carry while enjoying the subject park area), "Does the City of Roanoke have in place any 'ordinance, resolution or motion' concerning the 'purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof' within the park boundaries?"

    We may, and do know that any such thing would be in violation of 15.2-915, and thus invalid. But that won't keep you from spending the night in jail if you happen upon a LEO who does not know this, which makes this a very important issue to resolve ahead of time.

    You've discovered by now that your concern is very valid, but your e-mail asks the wrong question. Once you get your reply, the answer may be satisfactory, or it may lead you to immediately follow up with the more appropriate request, to immediately rescind any illegal rules or regulations that may be in place.

    TFred


  11. #11
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Ummm... Yeah, what Fred said!


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  12. #12
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Asking permission usually leads to massive confusion and misinformation. Look up the legalities, (most places will have info here, use forum search), Then go do it.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  13. #13
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I've never asked permission... I've been 86'd from some mighty fine eating establishments in my time, too!

    I found something out in the military:
    It is sometimes easier to beg forgiveness that to obtainpermission.

    Disclaimer: This "tude" led to more than one visit tothe Green Felt Tablecloth, so use this plan at your own risk.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  14. #14
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Fred, Ive yet to receive a reply, and anticipate that I will not. Ill at the least carry a copy of the law, and ask for a supervisor to review the information before any "action" be taken. The regular donuts are just gung ho to stroke somebody... andybody.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    FOIA the County/City Attorney for the Ordnance and the state exemption to Preemption they must have.
    That forces them to answer within 5 working days.

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    For Carvins Cove specifically, there used to be a city ordinance forbidding the possession of firearms there. I discovered 35-30 of the Code of Roanoke a little over a year ago, and brought it to the attention of the City Council. They quickly revised it to eliminate the preempted portions.

    For your reference, the revision was Ordinance #38379, passed at the March 2, 2009 meeting of the city council. The ordinance itself, along with a short note from the City Attorney advising its passage, can be found in the last two pages of the Council Agenda with Reports.

    So, in short, it sounds like somebody's working with outdated information. There was such an ordinance, but it's been revised, and it was preempted even when it was on the books.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Anyone tried carrying there lately?

  18. #18
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Tosta- Many thanks friend, you supplied a LOT of information. Ill be researching a bit more, and will be hiking Carvins Cove trails soon.

    Ill go to the boat dock side to get my yearly pass, will hike a bit on that side, and also off of the 311 side. I have a "tactical leg holster" on the way, this will allow me to carry while HIKING and not interfere with my web belt with canteen, etc...

    I also hump all hikes with a small daypack, that carries my VHF 2-meter ham radio, a sweatshirt, some blaze orange, first aid pack, etc.. stuff you just MIGHT need during a 1 day hike, my camelback even goes in it.

    Ill post back with my results. Im gonna OC at the boat dock even though the officer (Water Authority's version of Paul Blart) stated on the phone that it was "highly discouraged", guess I should have a printout or two to give him in case hes not up to speed.

    To be clear on what I am understanding, please expand on this question:

    I can carry a firearm (not specific to OC or CWP at this point) if I have the property owner's permission. The property owner may post a sign that says "NO FIREARMS" and I must comply.

    However, this only applies to PRIVATE property, correct? All public property should apply to pre-emptive??

    Cheers,
    Andrew

  19. #19
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Tosta- Many thanks friend, you supplied a LOT of information. Ill be researching a bit more, and will be hiking Carvins Cove trails soon.


    I'll post back with my results. Im gonna OC at the boat dock even though the officer (Water Authority's version of Paul Blart) stated on the phone that it was "highly discouraged", guess I should have a printout or two to give him in case hes not up to speed.

    YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE A SMALL VOICE RECORDER. SEE PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT THEM. AN INVALUABLE TOOL IF YOU HAPPEN TO RUN INTO SOMEONE IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY THAT THINKS YOU ARE WRONG...

    To be clear on what I am understanding, please expand on this question:

    I can carry a firearm (not specific to OC or CWP at this point) if I have the property owner's permission. The property owner may post a sign that says "NO FIREARMS" and I must comply.

    EVEN IF A PROPERTY IS POSTED WITH A "GHOSTBUSTERS SIGN" INDICATING THAT WEAPONS ARE NOT ALLOWED, YOU CAN'T BE CHARGED WITH TRESSPASSING UNTIL SOMEONE TELLS YOU TO LEAVE AND YOU REFUSE. IF A PROPERTY OWNER ASKS YOU TO LEAVE AND THEY DON'T HAVE A SIGN, NEVER ASK THEM FOR A SIGN OR MAKE MENTION THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE ONE.

    However, this only applies to PRIVATE property, correct? All public property should apply to pre-emptive??

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Most public property is considered covered by preemption. Check the laws to be sure. The laws may be difficult to read and understand for the "lay reader" (Us folks that don't read that kinda stuff on a regular basis and don't have an "ESQ" at the end of our names) I found a great reference book I STILL refer to on a regular basis:
    Virginia Gun Owners Guide by Alan Korwin. You can get it at most gun shows and maybe even a bookstore. I got mine on Amazon for about $15. Here's a link:

    http://www.gunlaws.com/vgogup.htm

    They have regular updates on their website, too.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Thanks FourFive... Ill look into that, sounds like a good book to have.

    Andrew

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Vcdl

    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Thanks FourFive... Ill look into that, sounds like a good book to have.

    Andrew
    Andrew
    I don't know if you are familiar with Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL), but they are a grass roots group that lobbies for gun law changes in VA. http://www.vcdl.org.
    They also sell that book in their store at http://www.vcdl.org/static/store.html
    John

  22. #22
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Wolf/John, Im impressed with what Ive seen at VCDL, I will be joining there cause soon, its a $$ issue for me right now, being out of work, etc..

    Thanks for bringing that to me..

    Andrew

  23. #23
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Wolf/John, Im impressed with what Ive seen at VCDL, I will be joining there cause soon, its a $$ issue for me right now, being out of work, etc..

    Thanks for bringing that to me..

    Andrew
    I think there are still some good VCDL vids on youtube with Phillip in them.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Wolf/John, Im impressed with what Ive seen at VCDL, I will be joining there cause soon, its a $$ issue for me right now, being out of work, etc..

    Thanks for bringing that to me..

    Andrew
    You can sign up for their ALERTS at no charge Andrew.
    They send the email alerts fairly often and they keep everyone up on what;s happening.

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