City of Roanoke: Parks: Carvins Cove

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Members: Here is a copy of an email I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov. It felt like the operator was "making up the rules" based on personal feelings, rather than laws and facts, so I direct it toward someone whom I hope can be of better help.

I am wanting to hike the trail systems at Carvins Cove which is property of the City of Roanoke (VA), but because it (1) Has bear & other wild creatures (2) Has may miles of secluded trail systems I am desiring to carry.

I will post any follow ups that I receive, I home someone with some real knowledge has a real answer.

HORAH
Andrew

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

To whom every may be of help,

I am trying to determine the City of Roanoke's stance of the possession and carry of a firearm either by means
of lawful open carry or licensed concealed carry within the boundries of any park owned by the City of
Roanoke.

It is my understanding that the Carvins Cove hiking trail system falls under the domain of Roanoke City
Parks & Recreation.

This evening (Thr Jun 24 2010 at 7:20 pm) I called and posed the question to the officer on duty at
the published phone number (540) 853-2212. I had to ask 3 times for the City's ordnance regarding
the restriction of carrying a firearm a park owned by Roanoke City, after being told it "was forbidden".

The female representative finally put me on hold and returned telling me the ordnance number was 18.2-308.

This is incorrect information, ordnance 18.2-308 is Virginia State code regarding the issue of
concealed weapons permit.

I am asking if someone with knowledge of the laws of federal, state and local can advise me correctly,
if it is legal or not to carry a firearm in a park owned by the City of Roanoke. I am not inquiring of the
personal opinion of the justification of carrying a firearm, I am only interested in the printed law.

Respectfully,
Andrew Daniel

ed · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

ElevenBravo wrote:

I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov.

That's you problem.

t33j · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

ed wrote:

ElevenBravo wrote:

I just sent to police@roanokeva.gov.

Click to expand...

That's you problem.

Aye.

A city in Virginia can't have a stance on pretty much anything related to firearms except their discharge.
If the park is city property, preemption applies.
See 15.2.915... is it bad that I have it memorized?

From their own website: "Carvins Cove Natural Reserve, located near Hollins University, is the second largest municipal park in the nation."

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Well, I sent the e-mail AFTER I got bad info from the phone call.

Thanks for the additional information, Im reading that now.

Andrew

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Found this too, because I know the code number to look under now (This is an education for me, for sure!):

http://www.paulhager.org/why027.htm

Thanks to all that are of help, its this kind of communication that makes this forum what I feel, great.

Cheers,
Andrew

MSC 45ACP · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

I'm sure you've figured out by now that the City of Roanoke cannot prevent you from carrying (either OC or CC) a firearm in a city park. Check these pages for Premption. Its EVERYWHERE!

As mentioned above, the ONLY thing about firearms amunicipality can regulate is the DISCHARGE of firearms...

I do not have any vested interest in the sale of any publication, but I've foundthe Virginia Gun Owner's Guide to be a GREAT reference. I've seen it for sale at every gun show I've attended and also seen it on Amazon (where I got mine).

http://www.gunlaws.com/vgog.htm

Also remember that no book or web site can provide the most up-to-date info about the carriage of firearms. YOU are responsible for keeping yourself abreast of the "latest and greatest" rules and regulations by reading the laws of your state.

Your park looks like a beautiful place for a picnic! If I get out that way, I think I'll bring the family there. My oldest also OC's a .45 :lol:, but hers is a full-sized Glock (21SF)and she turns a lot more heads than I do.

Cheers!

Mike

jmelvin · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Welcome to OCDO ElevenBravo. Now, time to learn. Police do not have an obligation to answer your questions with regard to the law and there is the distinct possibility that they will not give you a truthful answer even if they know the law. A basic Google search of "Virginia firearm law" and an hour of diligent searching should result in multiple useful links that can help you to decipher the law for yourself or at least put you in touch with some good resources to help you out. Take a bit to do some searching here, get to know the Virginia Citizen's Defense League (VCDL) and take a look at the Virginia State Police website which actually has a pretty good summary of state gun law with reference to the legislative code.

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Make sure you contact me before you come down for a picnic, Ill pack up my fam and we will join you!

Thanks to all that have responded, it has been a HUGE help! I am ignorant, and if it was not for you folks, Id stay that way!

Reading the laws, does not make for understanding, so in my case, google would have been a limited amount of help. Having someone that does understand the laws, give it to me in laymen's english, is a huge help!!

Thanks so much!
HORAH
Andrew

TFred · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

As you are probably beginning to discover... the question that really needs to be answered here is (and it is a very important question to one who desires to carry while enjoying the subject park area), "Does the City of Roanoke have in place any 'ordinance, resolution or motion' concerning the 'purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof' within the park boundaries?"

We may, and do know that any such thing would be in violation of 15.2-915, and thus invalid. But that won't keep you from spending the night in jail if you happen upon a LEO who does not know this, which makes this a very important issue to resolve ahead of time.

You've discovered by now that your concern is very valid, but your e-mail asks the wrong question. Once you get your reply, the answer may be satisfactory, or it may lead you to immediately follow up with the more appropriate request, to immediately rescind any illegal rules or regulations that may be in place.

TFred

MSC 45ACP · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Ummm... Yeah, what Fred said!

simmonsjoe · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

Asking permission usually leads to massive confusion and misinformation. Look up the legalities, (most places will have info here, use forum search), Then go do it.

MSC 45ACP · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

I've never asked permission... I've been 86'd from some mighty fine eating establishments in my time, too!

I found something out in the military:
It is sometimes easier to beg forgiveness that to obtainpermission.

Disclaimer: This "tude" led to more than one visit tothe Green Felt Tablecloth, so use this plan at your own risk.

ElevenBravo · Jun 26, 2010

Fred, Ive yet to receive a reply, and anticipate that I will not. Ill at the least carry a copy of the law, and ask for a supervisor to review the information before any "action" be taken. The regular donuts are just gung ho to stroke somebody... andybody.

peter nap · Jun 26, 2010

FOIA the County/City Attorney for the Ordnance and the state exemption to Preemption they must have.
That forces them to answer within 5 working days.

Tosta Dojen · Jun 26, 2010

For Carvins Cove specifically, there used to be a city ordinance forbidding the possession of firearms there. I discovered §35-30 of the Code of Roanoke a little over a year ago, and brought it to the attention of the City Council. They quickly revised it to eliminate the preempted portions.

For your reference, the revision was Ordinance #38379, passed at the March 2, 2009 meeting of the city council. The ordinance itself, along with a short note from the City Attorney advising its passage, can be found in the last two pages of the Council Agenda with Reports.

So, in short, it sounds like somebody's working with outdated information. There was such an ordinance, but it's been revised, and it was preempted even when it was on the books.

MSC 45ACP · Jun 26, 2010

Anyone tried carrying there lately?

ElevenBravo · Jun 27, 2010

Tosta- Many thanks friend, you supplied a LOT of information. Ill be researching a bit more, and will be hiking Carvins Cove trails soon.

Ill go to the boat dock side to get my yearly pass, will hike a bit on that side, and also off of the 311 side. I have a "tactical leg holster" on the way, this will allow me to carry while HIKING and not interfere with my web belt with canteen, etc...

I also hump all hikes with a small daypack, that carries my VHF 2-meter ham radio, a sweatshirt, some blaze orange, first aid pack, etc.. stuff you just MIGHT need during a 1 day hike, my camelback even goes in it.

Ill post back with my results. Im gonna OC at the boat dock even though the officer (Water Authority's version of Paul Blart) stated on the phone that it was "highly discouraged", guess I should have a printout or two to give him in case hes not up to speed.

To be clear on what I am understanding, please expand on this question:

I can carry a firearm (not specific to OC or CWP at this point) if I have the property owner's permission. The property owner may post a sign that says "NO FIREARMS" and I must comply.

However, this only applies to PRIVATE property, correct? All public property should apply to pre-emptive??

Cheers,
Andrew

MSC 45ACP · Jun 27, 2010

ElevenBravo said:
Tosta- Many thanks friend, you supplied a LOT of information. Ill be researching a bit more, and will be hiking Carvins Cove trails soon.

I'll post back with my results. Im gonna OC at the boat dock even though the officer (Water Authority's version of Paul Blart) stated on the phone that it was "highly discouraged", guess I should have a printout or two to give him in case hes not up to speed.

YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE A SMALL VOICE RECORDER. SEE PREVIOUS POSTS ABOUT THEM. AN INVALUABLE TOOL IF YOU HAPPEN TO RUN INTO SOMEONE IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY THAT THINKS YOU ARE WRONG...

To be clear on what I am understanding, please expand on this question:

I can carry a firearm (not specific to OC or CWP at this point) if I have the property owner's permission. The property owner may post a sign that says "NO FIREARMS" and I must comply.

EVEN IF A PROPERTY IS POSTED WITH A "GHOSTBUSTERS SIGN" INDICATING THAT WEAPONS ARE NOT ALLOWED, YOU CAN'T BE CHARGED WITH TRESSPASSING UNTIL SOMEONE TELLS YOU TO LEAVE AND YOU REFUSE. IF A PROPERTY OWNER ASKS YOU TO LEAVE AND THEY DON'T HAVE A SIGN, NEVER ASK THEM FOR A SIGN OR MAKE MENTION THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE ONE.

However, this only applies to PRIVATE property, correct? All public property should apply to pre-emptive??

Cheers,
Andrew

Most public property is considered covered by preemption. Check the laws to be sure. The laws may be difficult to read and understand for the "lay reader" (Us folks that don't read that kinda stuff on a regular basis and don't have an "ESQ" at the end of our names) I found a great reference book I STILL refer to on a regular basis:
Virginia Gun Owners Guide by Alan Korwin. You can get it at most gun shows and maybe even a bookstore. I got mine on Amazon for about $15. Here's a link:

http://www.gunlaws.com/vgogup.htm

They have regular updates on their website, too.

ElevenBravo · Jun 27, 2010

Thanks FourFive... Ill look into that, sounds like a good book to have.

Andrew

City of Roanoke: Parks: Carvins Cove

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member - Moderator

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member