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Thread: Non-Resident Carry in Michigan

  1. #1
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Arrow Non-Resident Open Carry in Michigan

    Hi All,
    Looks like my first post didn't survive the forum upgrade, so I'll try it one more time. If you had a comment before, please post it again so I can learn about Open Carry in Michigan.

    In July, my wife and I will be doing the Clockwise tour of the Lake Michigan shore from Southern Wisconsin up through the UP and down to East Lansing in our newly rebuilt "classic" motorhome, "Titanic".

    I've been doing my due diligence on your laws and it looks like with 28.422. 28.432, and 750.234d I'll be legal to Open Carry with my non-resident Utah CCW license. It also looks like I could Open Carry in:


    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    If this is correct, It means I have more opportunity to carry in Michigan than in my home state! You guys have done a great job up there for our freedoms.

    Just a couple more questions. What about Open Carry in the various flavors of Parks:

    1. National
    2. State
    3. County
    4. City

    When we are on the road I know that my weapon must be unloaded, encased, and inaccessible; but when we are stationary in a campsite and the motorhome magically transforms from a vehicle to a domicile, can I load up and carry in it then?

    Is there anything special I have to observe when I get the case out of its inaccessible spot to load up and holster up?
    Can a loaded mag be stored with the weapon?

    Do you have any activities/get-togethers planned for the weekend of July 25th in the vicinity of E. Lansing?

    Thanks for the information and I hope to see some of you.

    Dave
    Last edited by davegran; 06-27-2010 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Highlighted "Open Carry" for clarity.

  2. #2
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    You may carry in all parks... Michigan has complete preemption of local ordinances that deal with firearms.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102
    You may want to carry this handy chart: http://www.miopencarry.org/moc_files/brochure.pdf

    Post on here when and where you are when in Michigan; we have meet-ups quite often. Enjoy your trip!!

    There is some argument here whether Michigan will honor a Non-resident license... I believe they will for OC (they definately won't for CC). The state police MAY see it otherwise. I'm sure some will chime in here soon.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 06-26-2010 at 05:52 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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  3. #3
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    You may carry in all parks... Michigan has complete preemption of local ordinances that deal with firearms.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102
    You may want to carry this handy chart: http://www.miopencarry.org/moc_files/brochure.pdf

    Post on here when and where you are when in Michigan; we have meet-ups quite often. Enjoy your trip!!

    There is some argument here whether Michigan will honor a Non-resident license... I believe they will for OC (they definately won't for CC). The state police MAY see it otherwise. I'm sure some will chime in here soon.
    Thanks for the good wishes and the brochure, DrTodd! This language from Michigan Law seems pretty clear.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    <sections (a) through (e) omitted for length>
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.


    This doesn't say anything about being a resident of the issuing state. Of course that's just my unprofessional opinion.

    Is there any way for me to get a definitive answer?

    Dave

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Thanks for the good wishes and the brochure, DrTodd! This language from Michigan Law seems pretty clear.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    <sections (a) through (e) omitted for length>
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.


    This doesn't say anything about being a resident of the issuing state. Of course that's just my unprofessional opinion.

    Is there any way for me to get a definitive answer?

    Dave
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nope... nothing really definitive... you may want to email The Michigan State Police Legal Resources Unit at MSPLegal@michigan.gov or call them, (517) 336-6172. I generally don't ever suggest contacting LEO's before carrying so I am not sure I would count their response as "reliable" and, even if they said you could, would a local LEO know that or care? The law seems pretty clear in my unprofessional opinion too.

    If you don't care to do that or even if you do, I would print a copy of the "Janet Kukuk" act and carry it with me while in Michigan. The main problem is that Michigan also made an exception for people who have a license of any type (to purchase, possess, etc) which helps those in states like Illinois with a FOID card; this has been acknowledged by law enforcement. Regarding the Janet Kukuk Act, though, the MSP (Michigan State Police) have not given any acknowledgment anywhere... not that this necessarily hurts the argument but something from them sure would help.

    I am not a lawyer and my thoughts on this are what I would do in such a situation; your situation could be different. Carrying a copy of the law sure couldn't hurt.

    Carry on!

    (PS If you do decide to email them, feel free to share what you get with us here... I for one would love something in my hand from them saying you are good to go)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Lol! I'm certainly not overeducated, Dr. Todd. I had to Google!
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  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    My responses to your specific questions are in red... I forgot to include them the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post



    (c) A court.
    --Nope, the State Supreme Court has a rule against this and you will be cited for contempt

    Also, you may not carry in a casino (It's on the pamphlet to which I provided a link ).
    If this is correct, It means I have more opportunity to carry in Michigan than in my home state! You guys have done a great job up there for our freedoms.

    Just a couple more questions. What about OC in the various flavors of Parks:

    1. National
    2. State
    3. County
    4. City

    --Yep... I know I answered this.

    When we are on the road I know that my weapon must be unloaded, encased, and inaccessible; but when we are stationary in a campsite and the motorhome magically transforms from a vehicle to a domicile, can I load up and carry in it then?
    --I think so but am not 100% sure... perhaps someone here would know better than I.
    Is there anything special I have to observe when I get the case out of its inaccessible spot to load up and holster up?

    Since I have a CPL, I don't think anything special need be done; perhaps someone here who OC's without a CPL could tell you.

    Can a loaded mag be stored with the weapon?

    -My understanding is "yes".

    Do you have any activities/get-togethers planned for the weekend of July 25th in the vicinity of E. Lansing? -Nothing I know of yet... but check back here at opencarry.org or here: http://www.michiganopencarry.org/events to see. If not, we do have members around the area who may be interested... feel free to start a thread and say you'd like to meet up. I'm about 1.5 hours away but may be able to... I'll know better a little after the 4th of July.

    Thanks for the information and I hope to see some of you.

    Dave
    Carry on
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Thanks for the good wishes and the brochure, DrTodd! This language from Michigan Law seems pretty clear.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    <sections (a) through (e) omitted for length>
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    28.432 only exempts you from 28.422 which means that because you possess a concealed license from any state you won't need to get a Michigan "license to purchase/possess" your pistol and you won't have to register it in Michigan. It has little to do with the concealed carry laws.

    Then there is 750.227 which states:

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    and that needs to be taken in conjunction with 750.231a which provides exceptions to 750.277. .231a states, in part:

    Subsection (2) (quoted above, Bronson) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    Your non-resident Utah permit will still allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones, but you will not be able to conceal it or have it accessible while in the vehicle.

    This works because 750.234d, which provides the oc pistol free zones, has an exception for any one licensed to carry concealed by this or another state....there is no mention of a residency requirement in this law.

    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    To recap, Michigan does not offer concealed reciprocity for an out of stater that only has a non-resident permit from a third state. A non-resident permit does seem to meet the requirements under Michigan law to exempt you from the open carry pistol free zones and from the requirement that you must register your pistols in Michigan. Have fun explaining all of that to any wayward LEOs you may encounter.

    Oh yeah, as always, I am not a lawyer and anything I say is just may layman's understanding of Michigan law. Always seek competent legal counsel for answers to your legal questions.

    ETA: I misread the OP and thought you were planning on open AND concealed carry with your non-resident Utah permit.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 06-27-2010 at 03:05 AM.
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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    ....

    To recap, Michigan does not offer concealed reciprocity for an out of stater that only has a non-resident permit from a third state. A non-resident permit does seem to meet the requirements under Michigan law to exempt you from the open carry pistol free zones and from the requirement that you must register your pistols in Michigan. Have fun explaining all of that to any wayward LEOs you may encounter.

    Oh yeah, as always, I am not a lawyer and anything I say is just may layman's understanding of Michigan law. Always seek competent legal counsel for answers to your legal questions.

    ETA: I misread the OP and thought you were planning on open AND concealed carry with your non-resident Utah permit.

    Bronson

    Thanks for taking the time to respond, Bronson. Sorry my OP was not clear. I went back and highlighted the "Open Carry" language so my intention would be more clear.

    The brochure that DrTodd led me onto seems to give An AG opinion and statements by Senator Prusi, and the MSP that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly. They make no mention of resident or non-resident CPL.
    Do open carriers get stopped and questioned very often in Michigan?

    Any opinion about carrying in my motorhome when it is parked and hooked up to utilities?

    Dave

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to respond, Bronson. Sorry my OP was not clear. I went back and highlighted the "Open Carry" language so my intention would be more clear.

    The brochure that DrTodd led me onto seems to give An AG opinion and statements by Senator Prusi, and the MSP that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly. They make no mention of resident or non-resident CPL.
    Do open carriers get stopped and questioned very often in Michigan?

    Any opinion about carrying in my motorhome when it is parked and hooked up to utilities?

    Dave
    I took your question to mean that you would OC with a non-resident Concealed Carry license. I think Bronson was just making sure that you understood that CC for out-of-staters requires a resident permit. We wouldn't want you to go to jail over a "misunderstanding".
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I took your question to mean that you would OC with a non-resident Concealed Carry license.
    That was exactly what I had in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think Bronson was just making sure that you understood that CC for out-of-staters requires a resident permit. We wouldn't want you to go to jail over a "misunderstanding".
    Thanks for the concern. It's nice to know someone is watching my back!

    Dave

  11. #11
    bhancock
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    I jumped to this thread from Wisconsin and have not spent a lot of time looking over the Michigan forum so forgive me if this is a little newbie please. I am a resident of Wisconsin and if I understand this correctly, in order to even open carry in Michigan as a non-resident you need a CCP from another state? And then if you have the CCP you can also open carry in the pistol free OC zones as well?

    I visit family in SW Michigan a couple times a year and may want to OC in the St. Joseph/Benton Harbor area as well as down toward Sawyer and Bridgeman.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhancock View Post
    I jumped to this thread from Wisconsin and have not spent a lot of time looking over the Michigan forum so forgive me if this is a little newbie please. I am a resident of Wisconsin and if I understand this correctly, in order to even open carry in Michigan as a non-resident you need a CCP from another state? And then if you have the CCP you can also open carry in the pistol free OC zones as well?

    I visit family in SW Michigan a couple times a year and may want to OC in the St. Joseph/Benton Harbor area as well as down toward Sawyer and Bridgeman.

    Remember that when Michigan refers to a Concealed Pistol License (CPL), that is our concealed carry permit.
    When they refer to a "License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol", that is part of the registration process.

    Every handgun in Michigan must be registered, and in order for you to register it, you need to be a "resident". If you have any of the following , you would be considered a "resident of Michigan" for registration and could register your pistol and/or get a CPL (This is our Concealed Carry License): (From MCL 28.422) (BTW we don't have a non-resident CPL)

    i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.

    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.

    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.

    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.

    The part of the law which prohibits you from possessing a firearm in Michigan is the pistol registration (License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol) part of Michigan law.

    In Michigan, possession is what you are doing when OCing... I believe Wisconsin is the same.

    One exception listed in the law is a concealed pistol license from your state of residence. Under MCL 28.432a, if you have a concealed pistol license from your state of residence, you can carry as if you had a CPL issued in Michigan. Since WI doesn't issue concealed carry permits, this would not work for you.

    Another exception to the Registration requirement, also found in MCL 28.422 is this:

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.

    So, under this exception, if you have a permit/ license that allows you to purchase a handgun, carry a handgun, possess a handgun, from your state of residence, then you would be exempt. But, since Wisconsin, and most other states, doesn't license people to just purchase or possess a handgun, this exemption would not apply to you. Also, what is frustrating, is that the state police website lists this as the only exception besides the CPL from your state of residence as listed in my first exception.

    BUT,

    There is one more possibility. Although it hasn't been tested as far as I know, this one is very clear nonetheless.

    MCL28.432 (The Janet Kukuk Act),

    states that the registration requirements above are inapplicable to:

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

    So, what some of us have taken this to mean is that if you had a permit from another state but were resident in Wisconsin, you could OC under that other state's permit because you are exempt from the License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol. However, that permit will NOT allow you to carry concealed, as that requires that you be a resident of the state which issued the permit, as noted above at MCL 28.432a

    I haven't talked about where you can carry yet because it depends on which "exemption" you would be using, if any at all. If you already are covered under an existing exemption, just post it and one of us will be able to point you to the law about where you can carry.
    --
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-29-2010 at 11:58 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  13. #13
    bhancock
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    Thank You Dr. Todd,
    You made perfect sense of it all. I will get my PA or Utah CCL before I come to Michigan again then we will give the OC a test run. I will have to study that list of no go places again. Seems kind of odd that they will let OC in the pistol free zones with a non-resident CCL from another state, but concealed with a CCL from a home state. Like a lot of the statutes it really doesn't make sense. Thanks for all the good info.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    "Tested"? What do you mean?

    1. Court case: there probably will never be one.
    2. A person open carrying on one: Yep, I know of two people, but that doesn't mean anything either.
    3. Plain wording of the law: Yep, there it is. No mention of residency.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    ...
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    I humbley appologize for my previous post as well as this one, I posted in the wrong thread, my bad, sorry Dr. Todd, Davegran, and everyone else!
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 07-31-2010 at 01:48 AM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but I am having a problem understanding the problem. Utah has reciprocity in the state of Michigan. So why would he have a problem carry the gun concealed in his car or anywhere in the state (provided it's not a pistol free zone)?

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I'm sorry but I am having a problem understanding the problem. Utah has reciprocity in the state of Michigan. So why would he have a problem carry the gun concealed in his car or anywhere in the state (provided it's not a pistol free zone)?
    Because he is not a resident of Utah. In order to conceal carry or vehicle carry your concealed license must be from your state of residence.

    A non-Michigan resident visiting our state may open carry in the open carry pistol free zones with a concealed license issued by any state, there is no residency requirement.

    A non-Michigan resident that is visiting our state, that holds a concealed license from any state is also exempt from having to obtain a License to Purchase/Possess and from Michigan pistol registration.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I'm sorry but I am having a problem understanding the problem. Utah has reciprocity in the state of Michigan. So why would he have a problem carry the gun concealed in his car or anywhere in the state (provided it's not a pistol free zone)?
    The confusion I think is this. Michigan recognizes ALL states CPLs for concealed carry IF the CPL is from the state you live in. So if you are a resident of Utah and have a Utah CPL you can carry OC or CC in Michigan including loaded in your vehicle.

    But if you have a Utah permit and live in for example Maryland you could OC only in Michigan under the Utah permit, but transport unloaded etc. in a vehicle.

    So the law states a CPL from your home state you are good to OC or CC in Michigan.

    If you have a Non-resident CPL not from you home state you can possess a handgun in Michigan but could OC only and have to transport it unloaded in a case in the trunk, etc... while in a vehicle.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    We need a "head spinning" smiley.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Tim sr's Avatar
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    Cool I'm new to this forum

    I do OC in Niles,Mi. 5% of the time CC 95% of the time. this will change now thanks.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhancock View Post
    Thank You Dr. Todd,
    You made perfect sense of it all. I will get my PA or Utah CCL before I come to Michigan again then we will give the OC a test run. I will have to study that list of no go places again. Seems kind of odd that they will let OC in the pistol free zones with a non-resident CCL from another state, but concealed with a CCL from a home state. Like a lot of the statutes it really doesn't make sense. Thanks for all the good info.
    In bits and pieces, they sort of do. It's when you put them all together that it really is messed up.
    You know, they say making law is like making sausage... you really don't want to see how they do it...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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