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Thread: John Stossel - Should Students Pack Heat?

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    John Stossel - Should Students Pack Heat?

    Reporter John Stossel discusses the question of licensed students carrying concealed weapons on college campuses with David Burnett, President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus and Colin Goddard with the Brady Campaign.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X1VkkwIyOs&feature=sub

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    As a "returning adult" to college (pursuing an MFA at 44 years of age), and a person who has CC permits for two states (and one pending), I COMPLETELY agree with SCCC, and am a member.

    College campuses tend to be much safer than the business or residential districts of most major cities. However, there are MANY "adult students" in college today over the age of 21 who commute, or live off-campus. Many of us have permits. Many of us take night classes, or as graduate students we spend late nights in the library or in labs and studios working on projects. Having to leave our lawfully-carried firearms at home or locked in our cars off campus is not merely an annoyance--it is downright unconstitutional.

    My home state does not allow ANY carry or possession on school property, so I can't even legally park my car on-campus when I need to go to classes, meetings, or studio. I must park several blocks away on a public street and secure my firearm in my vehicle. This is dangerous for several reasons. First, I do not have my firearm with me, if I should be accosted going to or from my vehicle. Second, it increased the chances of my firearm being stolen. Vehicle break-ins are common in this city, especially in the areas around campus.

    As anyone who has recently been to a university knows, the campuses themselves are often very peaceful, well-lit, and safe, but almost EVERY university in the US is located in the part of it's city where it's surrounded by the most "dicey" neighborhoods of that city. I don't worry much about my safety while on campus. But I do worry when I'm walking to my car late at night, and try to avoid keeping late hours for that very reason. The university I attend is located in a city that has a rapidly rising violent crime problem, including drive-by shootings, drug-related gang violence, and armed robberies. To force me--a mature, law-abiding adult with extensive firearms training and experience--to leave my means of lawful defense locked in my car off campus is bordering on criminal...

    The neighborhoods surrounding my campus are some of the most crime-ridden neighborhoods in that city. My stepdaughter attends a college in Baltimore MD, which is surrounded on three sides by neighborhoods with some of the highest crime rates in that city (the forth side borders a river...) Yale University is notorious for being surrounded by crime-ridden neighborhoods. WVU, Pitt, Carnegie Melon, and EVERY university in Richmond VA are all in the most crime-ridden parts of town. To disallow students who are eligible to carry from carrying (or even possessing) self-defense firearms on campus is bordering on criminal, on the parts of the school administrations and the State Legislatures.

    Groups like SCCC are working to get these laws changed, but it's an uphill battle. The Brady Campaign always seems to try and present this issue like we want to let ALL college students just carry guns around all the time, and that's not what we want. The TRUTH of the matter is that prohibiting law-abiding adults over 21--who may legally carry just about ANYWHERE ELSE--from discretely carrying while on-campus is irresponsible, unconstitutional, and arbitrary. In the case of states like NC, PA, WV and VA (and many others) which have State Preemption laws for government property, carry prohibitions on college or university campuses is, on it's face, illegal, and violates State law.

    But groups like Brady would rather pass and enforce illegal laws that restrict the law-abiding than actually do anything that would allow citizens to do something effective to deter the actions of criminals and madmen. The hands of the Brady's are dripping with the blood of innocent victims of their agenda, and they LIKE it that way. They would rather have MORE defenseless victims blood to dance in when they go begging for donations, than actually empower law-abiding citizens with the ability to END the victimization of innocents...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-26-2010 at 11:17 PM.

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    Dreamer has hit the nail on the head here.

    My youngest daughter just finished her bachelor's program and will now be working on her masters. My middle daughter will be working on her second masters. Neither will be living on campus and my youngest did not live on campus for the last two years. Almost every college is getting away from the dormitory type setting and the majority of students tend to live off campus after the first year or two. All the cries about the dangers in the classrooms like in the VT shootings are valid but nowhere near the dangers the students face outside the classroom. I would like to see more focus on the dangers outside the classroom and while traveling to and from class. Since the restrictions for guns on campus also restrict them while traveling to and from campus it puts students in real danger. This needs to be addressed but is overshadowed by the dangers while locked inside a classroom. If colleges are going to force students to live off campus then changes have to be made.

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    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    I totally agree

    I agree with you Dreamer. I am 23 years old, a former marine, and a student at GMU. And not to mention a female and a target for a mugging/rape because society teaches that women are physically weaker, and the best person to attack is a female because she wont put up a fight. I have hand-to-hand combat training so I am at an advantage when it comes to the typical "defenseless" woman, but if that mugger has a gun I'm screwed!
    I also think that it complete BS that individuals that are NOT associated with the university (anyone other than students, faculty, or employees) can carry concealed or open on GMU. It is not illegal for me as a student to carry according to state law (meaning I will not be in legal trouble), but it is against school policy and if caught carrying I can be expelled. And have that on my school transcript is a definite NO that I cannot apply to other schools and be accepted, so essentially my future would be ruined. What a crock of crap. I guess VA tech taught people nothing. I'll tell you one thing, if I get shot or killed, me or my family members WILL sue the crap out of the school.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    EVERY university in Richmond VA are all in the most crime-ridden parts of town.
    The University of Richmond and their neighbors will be very surprised to hear that.

    Regardless of where the college is located, it will however attract those wishing to prey on the defenseless.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The University of Richmond and their neighbors will be very surprised to hear that.

    Regardless of where the college is located, it will however attract those wishing to prey on the defenseless.

    The only crime I've ever experienced in Richmond was while visiting from friends about 15 years ago. They were students at U of R, and my Volkswagen Beetle was broken into, in broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon, parked RIGHT IN FRONT of a church. Scumbags got my saxophone and about $500 worth of Craftsman tools...

    I know this is only an isolated incident, but it IS first-hand knowledge...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    The only crime I've ever experienced in Richmond was while visiting from friends about 15 years ago. They were students at U of R, and my Volkswagen Beetle was broken into, in broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon, parked RIGHT IN FRONT of a church. Scumbags got my saxophone and about $500 worth of Craftsman tools...

    I know this is only an isolated incident, but it IS first-hand knowledge...
    http://spotcrime.com/va/richmond
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    I'm all for students being able to conceal on campus. Not open carry obviously (too much distraction) but if it's kept in a concealed manner by people that already are allowed to carry in their state, then where does harm follow? Sure college students tend to party more and be more irresponsible but there are also a great number of students that are very responsible. They get good grades, have a passion for their work and wish to be successful in their lives. So why deny them the right to self-defense?

    I'm a 23 year old former infantry marine so for someone to tell me I can't defend myself, it makes me sick. I'm not trusted to conceal my firearm at my college? Are you kidding me? It really is sad that even after the horrible college attacks by the mentally ill, people think colleges should still remain gun-free zones...After all we expect criminals to read all the signs and to check the laws before they bring their firearm into a gun-free zone to commit murder! I'd expect professionals of higher learning to be better educated on reality of the situation!

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    I'd expect professionals of higher learning to be better educated on reality of the situation!
    LOL...

    You've not had much experience with University staff or administration, have you...

    There is a very strange hierarchy in the "higher education" world. Essentially, it breaks down like this:

    --If you are an undergrad, you are seen as an open wallet by the administration. Nothing more.
    --If you are a Grad Student, you are seen as an open wallet with the potential to become part of the "elite", if you play the game right.
    --If you are a non-tenured professor, you are seen as a financial liability, unless you publish a lot, or write a lot of successful grants, in which case, you are a potential long-term asset.
    --If you are tenured, you are expected to be a source of income for the institution, as a grant recipient, a published researcher, or through attracting students through personal fame. If you can do that, you are essentially above reproach, no matter how weird, wacky, mean, or inhumane you are to students.
    --If you are a high level administrator, you are essentially a god, unless you REALLY screw up, or the school undergoes some terrible tragedy during your term (crime, drop in enrollment, research-related embarassment, etc)

    The key to making it up the ranks in the University system is to NOT rock the boat until you get tenure. This means not going against the standard "ivory tower" sensibilities--supporting bigger government, supporting the evisceration of individual rights, not questioning the prevailing socio-political mythos, etc. The grand irony of Tenured Professorship is that it is essentially a culture of ideological subjugation and conformity...

    Once you've got tenure, though, , all bets are off, ideologically. You can essentially say or publish anything you want, and as long as you don't commit a felony or something, you're pretty much set for life.

    The idea that institutes of higher learning are somehow these grand forums of free thought, free speech, and open and rational discourse is simply BS. Any sort of contrary speech or press is branded as "hate speech" or "creating a hostile learning environment", or some other such nonsense. There are a FEW professors out there who will support and encourage contrary thinking, but they are few and far between,and are either tenured or "short-timers" who are looking to move soon anyway...

    For instance, on my campus (I'm a 44 year old grad student) we have a "free speech zone". It's about 1 acre. The campus is 1600 acres. You have to get permission to use the "free speech zone". To get permission, you must be affiliated with a campus-recognized organization. To be a campus-recognized org, you have to have a full-time instructor sign on as an advisor.

    You have jump through all these hoops to use 1/1600th of the campus to exercise Constitutionally protected right! And this is at a STATE university...

    Not too "free", huh?

    And that is not strange or weird. This practice is pretty standard fare on University campuses nationwide, with a few exceptions (like in TX, where a lawsuit ruled in the State Supreme Court that "free speech zones" were a civil rights violation, and counldn't be enforced...)

    Needless to say, the concept of even attempting rational discourse or public education about 2A rights on most college campuses is not easy. And in a state like NC, where there are state Statutes prohibiting ANY carry on campus property, the debate is pretty much closed, except in the theoretical sense, until the General Assembly changes the law. And considering the current State government administration, the college ban isn't going to be lifted anytime soon, short of some miraculous lawsuit...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-24-2010 at 03:45 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    You're spot on Dreamer - follow the money.

    It is the establishment of self-promotion centers for the establishment - brain washing. Not just 1st and 2nd Amendment rights, but all original and critical thinking is stifled.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    I won't deny that dreamer.

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Colin Goddard is such a tool.

    On the topic of colleges having cruddy neighborhoods around them, I've seen it myself. Dreamer, what college is your daughter at in Baltimore? UofB? MICA? I know firsthand both of these have cruddy neighborhoods around them, though not in immediate proximity. However criminals ooze out to where the good pickin's are, and they don't have far to ooze. When I was at MICA, there were people there who seemed to not care at all that there was crime in the area. Then there was the guy who would tell his story of being robbed at gunpoint, the gun put to his head, then have an odd laugh about it. He told me that was what inspired him to make " saturday night special" tiles that he had on the wall of his studio space.

    I was angry about the crime and even had this territorial attitude going. My "weapon" was my dog, and I guess I'll say my " look". Pretty much can say that "Baltimore open carry" best describes it. Never was I ever a crime victim during that time. I even proudly "OC'd" my dog while along with a nightly neighborhood patrol group. And while the other dog park people stopped meeting at the park at night, I never caved into their wussyness. One night when I wasn't there, some lone man walked through and threatened to cut any dog that came up to him. That was it for the dog park people- except for me. I wasn't going to be intimidated by some pass through from the nearby crapzone, who would probably not even walk through there again at the time when we all let our dogs run around. This was OUR neighborhood. Well they ran off baaaaaa-ing, and I continued to walk my dog there every night, except for the one night a bunch of banger kids were running amok breaking bottles. THAT would have been pushing things way too far even for me.

    Now, a student could bring a dog to classes in most buildings at MICA then, so I did. Not sure how all this is now. I can tell you that the school has more libtards than ever, judging by all the alumni booklets I get in the mail.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    How about open carry in govt. class. You could have a whole discussion on why people are allowed to do that. You could also do it in history class. Heck even a debate about it would be great.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    Dreamer:

    That is quite possibly the best assessment of the world of American academia today I've ever seen.

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    Great analysis, Dreamer. I'm also an older graduate student and have attended small colleges and large, R1 universities (U of MD, College Park). Regardless of the setting, higher education is a business. You give us the money, we give you the piece of paper.

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