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Thread: unlicensed carry

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    unlicensed carry

    I know I have mentioned this before, but I would appreciate it if everyone would work their reps to obtain an unlicensed carry bill in 2011--I have seen others on other forums speaking of it--BUT I have also seen some responding who seem to look at the TN Handgun carry permit as some sort of sacred cow that should be left alone...


    please work your reps to get them to support an unlicensed carry bill in 2011. We can be as good or better than AZ or even AK if we take the time to speak with our legislators...

    suntzu.

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    I would love to work with my reps, unfortunately I live in Nashville and am represented by antis (Thelma Harper)...

    Mind listing any reps that would be good to contact even if they don't represent me (or others in a similar situation as myself)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    I would love to work with my reps, unfortunately I live in Nashville and am represented by antis (Thelma Harper)...

    Mind listing any reps that would be good to contact even if they don't represent me (or others in a similar situation as myself)?
    I think Stacy Campfield from Knoxville would be a good one to contact. I'm not sure about Yager or or Faulkner. Perhaps those who sponsored and voted for the bill allowing carry where alcohol is served would be someone to contact....I am pretty positive Campfield would be for it--just not sure how receptive he would be so close on the heels of the restaurant carry bill.

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    Tennessee Code 39-17-1308(a)(1) provides:
    [I]t is a Defense to a Violation of 39-17-1307 if... [a Person]... Possesses or Carries... an Unloaded Rifle, Shotgun, or Handgun... [where] the Ammunition [wherefore]... was not in the immediate vicinity of the... Weapon.
    Nevertheless, however, The State of Tennessee needs to prove that there was an Intent to go Armed, not merely just going Armed, but rather with Intent. I assume the Intent is Criminal, but I do not have access to a Tennessee Code Book for any such proof.

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    The leadership and the judicial committee would be good places to start.
    Now that the court has ruled the second amendment is an incorporated individual right I'd like to know how that is going to affect carry in Tennessee. Are those with DUI's going to be allowed a permit, people who fail to pay child support, people who are on probation for a class A misdemeanor, people like me who haven't broken any law? Is qualifying at the range going to continue?
    Tennessee will be better off adopting permitless carry than try and fight all the lawsuits which are going to come their way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Tennessee Code 39-17-1308(a)(1) provides:
    [I]t is a Defense to a Violation of 39-17-1307 if... [a Person]... Possesses or Carries... an Unloaded Rifle, Shotgun, or Handgun... [where] the Ammunition [wherefore]... was not in the immediate vicinity of the... Weapon.
    Nevertheless, however, The State of Tennessee needs to prove that there was an Intent to go Armed, not merely just going Armed, but rather with Intent. I assume the Intent is Criminal, but I do not have access to a Tennessee Code Book for any such proof.
    I think it is well established that "intent to go armed" is carrying a loaded firearm which may be used offensively or defensively. In light of the recent Supreme Court decision I can't see how this Tennessee law is Constitutional. The whole reason to carry a firearm is for offensive or defensive purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    The leadership and the judicial committee would be good places to start.
    Now that the court has ruled the second amendment is an incorporated individual right I'd like to know how that is going to affect carry in Tennessee. Are those with DUI's going to be allowed a permit, people who fail to pay child support, people who are on probation for a class A misdemeanor, people like me who haven't broken any law? Is qualifying at the range going to continue?
    Tennessee will be better off adopting permitless carry than try and fight all the lawsuits which are going to come their way.
    why not also obtain signatures on a set of petitions taken from various areas in the state--everyone work the county in which they live? Not that I think it would do a tremendous amount of good, because the antis are not going to be moved by petitions anyway....but those legislators who are for unlicensed carry just might be emboldened enough to try and get an unlicensed carry bill passed if they see a good deal of signatures on petitions...

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    I say it again--people in this state are absolutely enamored by the permit system---they see it as some sort of a sacred cow that should never be messed with. A good example is this thread here: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/te...ee-2011-a.html

    and I'm not trying to start a flame war between forums, that is not the point, so let's not turn it into one. The point is to show that it is going to be an uphill battle just against the opinion of TN HCP holders just to get any unlicensed carry law passed, not to mention the battle against the TFA lobby, the one sided newspapers, and other liberals in this state who are determined to turn TN into the next Chicago or D.C--some in that thread seem to believe that the police should be able to stop and check you out when they see you with a gun--making sure you are "legal"--another thinks the fingerprinting should still be necessary....


    People in this state need to wake up--are the criminals getting fingerprinted--NO. Do the criminals carry a gun without a permit--YES. Who is the TN gun laws directed at--the LAW ABIDING people....what is the matter with people anymore--it is as if they have lost all semblance of common sense.

    Unlicensed carry would be a wonderful thing if we could convince our reps to work on such a bill. It can be done.

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    Here is another idea.

    As an idea--we could ask the Second Amendment Foundation and the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms if they would be willing to involve themselves and see if they could help get unlicensed carry in this state--the most they could say is no, sorry....

    Asking the TFA or the NRA to do it would be useless--they are enamored I think with the training aspect.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    As an idea--we could ask the Second Amendment Foundation and the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms if they would be willing to involve themselves and see if they could help get unlicensed carry in this state--the most they could say is no, sorry....

    Asking the TFA or the NRA to do it would be useless--they are enamored I think with the training aspect.....
    Maybe I'm just cynical, but one is going to help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Maybe I'm just cynical, but one is going to help.
    well no one is going to help if we don't take the time to actually talk to them now are they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I say it again--people in this state are absolutely enamored by the permit system---they see it as some sort of a sacred cow that should never be messed with. A good example is this thread here: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/te...ee-2011-a.html

    and I'm not trying to start a flame war between forums, that is not the point, so let's not turn it into one. The point is to show that it is going to be an uphill battle just against the opinion of TN HCP holders just to get any unlicensed carry law passed, not to mention the battle against the TFA lobby, the one sided newspapers, and other liberals in this state who are determined to turn TN into the next Chicago or D.C--some in that thread seem to believe that the police should be able to stop and check you out when they see you with a gun--making sure you are "legal"--another thinks the fingerprinting should still be necessary....


    People in this state need to wake up--are the criminals getting fingerprinted--NO. Do the criminals carry a gun without a permit--YES. Who is the TN gun laws directed at--the LAW ABIDING people....what is the matter with people anymore--it is as if they have lost all semblance of common sense.

    Unlicensed carry would be a wonderful thing if we could convince our reps to work on such a bill. It can be done.
    Do you know of any reason that we could not work on such a bill and then submit it to legislators for sponsorship?

    Personally, I want any person who wishes to carry, and is not currently serving a felony sentence or adjudicated mentally incompetent, to have the right to carry a firearm of their choosing in a manner of their choosing (open or concealed) without paying any tax to the state.

    Now, assuming that there is not legal reason that we could not write the bill, how would we start the research? Do we look to other states and copy their laws, or to we repeal everything we have in Tennessee while changing our state constitution to protect the right?

    And just a matter of collaboration, do we do all the work here or in a wiki type of environment (or even something else)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Do you know of any reason that we could not work on such a bill and then submit it to legislators for sponsorship?
    I know of no reason that the people cannot work on legislation and submit it for sponsorship, but that does not mean a whole lot, given the arcane nature of parliamentary rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Personally, I want any person who wishes to carry, and is not currently serving a felony sentence or adjudicated mentally incompetent, to have the right to carry a firearm of their choosing in a manner of their choosing (open or concealed) without paying any tax to the state.
    There-in lies part of the problem--with unlicensed carry the police will have no legal grounds to stand upon when detaining someone merely for possession of a holstered firearm--which is exactly how it should be, and because of this--you will have no idea who is and is not legally able to possess a firearm without enough RAS to conduct a stop, or unless they are on a service call and there is RAS to run a check on the individual.

    Being adjudicated incompetent only matters if you buy the gun through a gun store.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Now, assuming that there is not legal reason that we could not write the bill, how would we start the research? Do we look to other states and copy their laws, or to we repeal everything we have in Tennessee while changing our state constitution to protect the right?



    And just a matter of collaboration, do we do all the work here or in a wiki type of environment (or even something else)?
    Assuming there is nothing hindering any of us from writing such legislation--I think the best idea would be collaboration here.

    What I would propose would be to completely repeal 39-17-1307 in its entirety and instead substitute something that makes it a felony for any convicted felon not having their rights restored to be in the possession of a firearm, as well as a felony for anyone selling, using or transporting illegal drugs, or for anyone who uses a firearm in the commission of any other crime. I just think the spotlight should be on the criminal for a change. For such a crime--criminals should have to serve at least 75-85% of their time before considered for parole.

    The TN state Constitution would also have to be amended along the lines of Alaska.

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    they did it in arizona, to me that means it can be done elsewhere........like wisconsin, or tennessee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I know of no reason that the people cannot work on legislation and submit it for sponsorship, but that does not mean a whole lot, given the arcane nature of parliamentary rules.



    There-in lies part of the problem--with unlicensed carry the police will have no legal grounds to stand upon when detaining someone merely for possession of a holstered firearm--which is exactly how it should be, and because of this--you will have no idea who is and is not legally able to possess a firearm without enough RAS to conduct a stop, or unless they are on a service call and there is RAS to run a check on the individual.

    Being adjudicated incompetent only matters if you buy the gun through a gun store.


    Assuming there is nothing hindering any of us from writing such legislation--I think the best idea would be collaboration here.

    What I would propose would be to completely repeal 39-17-1307 in its entirety and instead substitute something that makes it a felony for any convicted felon not having their rights restored to be in the possession of a firearm, as well as a felony for anyone selling, using or transporting illegal drugs, or for anyone who uses a firearm in the commission of any other crime. I just think the spotlight should be on the criminal for a change. For such a crime--criminals should have to serve at least 75-85% of their time before considered for parole.

    The TN state Constitution would also have to be amended along the lines of Alaska.
    Well, in my mind, if you can legally buy it, you can carry it.

    I'm going to go further and suggest the repeal of the entire section 39-17-1300-99 (inclusive) [yes I know not all those numbers are used], keeping only 39-17-1306 and adding a true and complete state pre-emption.

    Adding in an appropriate place that any business or government agency that would prohibit weapons on their property (for customer, visitor, or employees) would be required to have at least one armed guard at each entrance until such time as the business is closed and no person lawfully remains the premises.

    Adding a PA style lock-box law for court rooms that are off limits per 39-17-1306.

    39-17-1351 and 1352 would need to be totally reworked (they can keep the training requirement if they want) to allow for carry in other states and that only a felony conviction could cause revocation, suspensions only for felony charges. Complete restoration of permits would be immediate at time of dismissal or acquittal of felony charges. Reducing fees to only cover the cost of the license manufacture (and maybe fingerprinting).
    Last edited by WCrawford; 07-01-2010 at 01:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    ...suspensions only for felony charges.
    Guilty until proven innocent?

    If this person is so dangerous and the felony so grave then why would this person be on the streets in the first place?

    I am with you on most of the rest though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Well, in my mind, if you can legally buy it, you can carry it.

    I'm going to go further and suggest the repeal of the entire section 39-17-1300-99 (inclusive) [yes I know not all those numbers are used], keeping only 39-17-1306 and adding a true and complete state pre-emption.
    I agree that it should all be repealed and reworked to allow for all of the things we want--campus carry, complete preemption, ability to carry in all parks in the state and total unlicensed carry. BUT--I don't see that happening. I dare say it would be an uphill battle just to get unlicensed carry, let alone the rest--so even permitless carry would be a huge--HUGE victory for all of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Adding in an appropriate place that any business or government agency that would prohibit weapons on their property (for customer, visitor, or employees) would be required to have at least one armed guard at each entrance until such time as the business is closed and no person lawfully remains the premises.
    I would also require any business or corporate entity--business, city, municipality or state entity that prohibits firearms on their property to carry insurance and be financially liable for any harm that occurs as a result of said prohibition.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Adding a PA style lock-box law for court rooms that are off limits per 39-17-1306.
    I agree with this completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    39-17-1351 and 1352 would need to be totally reworked (they can keep the training requirement if they want) to allow for carry in other states and that only a felony conviction could cause revocation, suspensions only for felony charges. Complete restoration of permits would be immediate at time of dismissal or acquittal of felony charges. Reducing fees to only cover the cost of the license manufacture (and maybe fingerprinting).

    With a repeal of 39-17-1307 we would need to completely re-write 1351 and 1352 in order to keep the permits available for those who wish to travel out of state. The training requirement I agree could be kept for the purposes of the permit, BUT as a state that allows carry without a permit--you would not be required to show your permit (if you have one) to any law enforcement officer, security guard or anyone else--as one would not be needed to carry in this state.

    I also agree that a felony conviction should result in your loss of your permit. I do not agree that felony charges should result in suspension of your right to keep or bear arms--it should be judged on a case by case basis, because you simply don't know anymore whether the charges are legitimate or not, or if it is more along the lines of the PreCrime Incident that occurred in Oregon a while back.

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    Kingfish and Suntzu, you both misunderstand. The suspension for a felony charge is for the new style permit ONLY. A person charged with a felony could still carry unlicensed, unless a judge ordered otherwise. I would want something in the law that a non-violent felony charge would not be reason to suspends a person's RTKBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Kingfish and Suntzu, you both misunderstand. The suspension for a felony charge is for the new style permit ONLY. A person charged with a felony could still carry unlicensed, unless a judge ordered otherwise. I would want something in the law that a non-violent felony charge would not be reason to suspends a person's RTKBA.
    I see your point and I may actually agree...This is ONLY for reciprocity and other states may not like...Hmm...Need to think about this one.

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    Ideas about what changes we would seek.

    OK, so let's see what we can do. I'll start: This is something I free-wrote--feel free to add or take away and let's see what we can come up with.


    SECTION 1: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1307 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1307 in its entirety , and instead inserting the following: 39-17-1307(1) It shall be unlawful for any person convicted of a felony and who has not had their civil rights restored to be in the possession of a firearm. (2) It shall be unlawful for any person having been convicted of the crime of domestic violence to be in the possession of a firearm unless the individual has had their conviction expunged or pardoned (3) It shall be unlawful for any person to have a firearm within their possession when in the commission of any of the following : transporting, using or manufacturing narcotics, or other illicit drugs, or be in the commission of a crime of violence.

    A violation of part (1) of this section shall be a Class D Felony. A violation of part (2) of this section shall be a Class E felony. A violation of part (3) of this section shall be a Class C felony.

    Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any citizen not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their twenty-first birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

    Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

    Section 4: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 is amended by deleting (c)4 in its entirety.

    Section 5: Code Annotated 39-17-1351 is amended by adding the following new section (3) No law enforcement officer may forcibly detain an armed citizen merely for the possession of a holstered firearm.

    Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No citizen of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the citizen is necessary for the protection of the officer, the citizen or nearby citizens. The officer must return the firearm to the citizen at the end of the encounter if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

    Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $75

    Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any citizen may bear arms either openly or concealed onto the grounds of any state, county or municipal park, public playground and municipal civic center within the state of Tennessee.

    Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county or municipality within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
    Last edited by suntzu; 07-01-2010 at 10:30 PM.

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    TN Constitution 26. Weapons; right to bear arms:

    "That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime."

    I think it should be changed to read just like the one Alaska has : "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State."

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    Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

    Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

    Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No legal resident of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the citizen is necessary for the protection of the officer, the citizen or nearby citizens. The officer must return the firearm to the citizen at the end of the encounter if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

    Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

    Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state.

    Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county or municipality within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    TN Constitution 26. Weapons; right to bear arms:

    "That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime."

    I think it should be changed to read just like the one Alaska has : "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State."

    The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

    Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

    Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No legal resident of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the citizen is necessary for the protection of the officer, the citizen or nearby citizens. The officer must return the firearm to the citizen at the end of the encounter if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

    Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

    Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state not otherwise prohibited by state statute .

    Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county or municipality within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

    So here is a question--how do you propose to make it legal for an individual 18yrs of age to carry a firearm when you have to be 21 to purchase ammunition?

    Second question--I understand your point about being a resident--but how do you propose to determine who is and isn't a resident for purposes of this act? If you differentiate between a resident and a visitor with a permit--then you have to have a way to determine resident status. Since permits are out, and TN is not a stop and ID state--how do you propse to do that?

    Third--I still propose that it be such that Section 4 which deletes the requirement to provide a social security number when applying for a permit, and Section 5 which prohibits law enforcement from approaching and detaining an individual merely for the possession of a firearm be kept in the act--we want it to where we can't be detained merely for carrying, and the social security number should not be a requirement for a permit.

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    Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any person legally in the state not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

    Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

    Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No person legally in the state of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the person is necessary for the protection of the officer, the person or nearby persons. The officer must return the firearm to the person at the end of the encounter, in the exact same condition and configuration, if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

    Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

    Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any person legally in the state may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state.

    Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county, municipality or board appointed by such within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
    Last edited by WCrawford; 07-03-2010 at 11:05 PM.

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