unlicensed carry

TN Constitution § 26. Weapons; right to bear arms:

"That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime."

I think it should be changed to read just like the one Alaska has : "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State."

Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No legal resident of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the citizen is necessary for the protection of the officer, the citizen or nearby citizens. The officer must return the firearm to the citizen at the end of the encounter if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state.

Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county or municipality within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

suntzu said:

TN Constitution § 26. Weapons; right to bear arms:

"That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime."

I think it should be changed to read just like the one Alaska has : "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State."

Click to expand...

The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

Kingfish said:

Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No legal resident of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the citizen is necessary for the protection of the officer, the citizen or nearby citizens. The officer must return the firearm to the citizen at the end of the encounter if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any legal resident may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state not otherwise prohibited by state statute .

Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county or municipality within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

So here is a question--how do you propose to make it legal for an individual 18yrs of age to carry a firearm when you have to be 21 to purchase ammunition?

Second question--I understand your point about being a resident--but how do you propose to determine who is and isn't a resident for purposes of this act? If you differentiate between a resident and a visitor with a permit--then you have to have a way to determine resident status. Since permits are out, and TN is not a stop and ID state--how do you propse to do that?

Third--I still propose that it be such that Section 4 which deletes the requirement to provide a social security number when applying for a permit, and Section 5 which prohibits law enforcement from approaching and detaining an individual merely for the possession of a firearm be kept in the act--we want it to where we can't be detained merely for carrying, and the social security number should not be a requirement for a permit.

Section 2: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1308 is repealed in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any person legally in the state not having been convicted of a felony or the crime of domestic violence and having reached their eighteenth birthday may bear holstered arms openly or concealed without a permit within the state of Tennessee except in those places posted pursuant to Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1359, or into those places which are prohibited by statute.

Section 3: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1306 is amended as follows: By deleting 39-17-1306 in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any state, county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee may prohibit firearms carry in the courtroom(s) but must provide locked container boxes into which armed citizens may store their firearms upon entering a county or municipal courthouse within the state of Tennessee.

Section 6: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(B)(t) is amended by deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following : No person legally in the state of this state may be disarmed by a law enforcement officer unless the officer can clearly articulate that disarming the person is necessary for the protection of the officer, the person or nearby persons. The officer must return the firearm to the person at the end of the encounter, in the exact same condition and configuration, if the officer is unable to determine that the citizen poses a threat to either himself, the officer or others.

Section 7: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 2(p)(1) is amended as follows: By deleting $115 and instead inserting $25

Section 8: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1311 is hereby amended as follows: By deleting the section in its entirety and instead inserting the following: Any person legally in the state may bear arms either openly or concealed anywhere in the state.

Section 9: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1314 is amended by deleting 39-17-1314(a) and instead inserting the following new section: (A) No city, county, municipality or board appointed by such within the state of Tennessee may enact any ordinance, rule, or law which restricts the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

suntzu said:

So here is a question--how do you propose to make it legal for an individual 18yrs of age to carry a firearm when you have to be 21 to purchase ammunition?

Click to expand...

1. The Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act would allow (theoretically) a person under 21 to purchase ammo for a handgun.

2. Such a person could be given ammo by another person.

suntzu said:

Second question--I understand your point about being a resident--but how do you propose to determine who is and isn't a resident for purposes of this act? If you differentiate between a resident and a visitor with a permit--then you have to have a way to determine resident status. Since permits are out, and TN is not a stop and ID state--how do you propse to do that?

Click to expand...

I made some changes that would alow for any person who was legally in Tennessee. This would apply to visitors from other states, foreign visitors or permanent residents with valid visas. Since TN is not a stop and ID state, the only way to determine if this law has been broken is for some other crime to have been committed and their immigration status checked (as is now required in jails).

suntzu said:

Third--I still propose that it be such that Section 4 which deletes the requirement to provide a social security number when applying for a permit, and Section 5 which prohibits law enforcement from approaching and detaining an individual merely for the possession of a firearm be kept in the act--we want it to where we can't be detained merely for carrying, and the social security number should not be a requirement for a permit.

Click to expand...

I'm considering adding a criminal penalty to section 5, what would you think of that?

I think that the laws prohibiting the possession of firearms by those who have orders of protections and have been found guilty of misdemeanors may be unconstitutional. The laws prohibiting the sale of ammo and handguns to those less than 21 may also be illegal. Just because the Federal Government has a law prohibiting some type of carry or possession doesn't mean the State needs a law too.

If we're going to have a permit process the appeal needs to be setup differently. There needs to be a hearing before the permit is revoked or suspended.

The definition of "loaded" needs to be changed too.

WCrawford said:

1. The Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act would allow (theoretically) a person under 21 to purchase ammo for a handgun.

2. Such a person could be given ammo by another person.




I made some changes that would alow for any person who was legally in Tennessee. This would apply to visitors from other states, foreign visitors or permanent residents with valid visas. Since TN is not a stop and ID state, the only way to determine if this law has been broken is for some other crime to have been committed and their immigration status checked (as is now required in jails).



I'm considering adding a criminal penalty to section 5, what would you think of that?

Click to expand...

You mean along the lines of this: Section 5: Tennessee Code Annotated 39-17-1351 is amended by adding the following new section (3) No law enforcement officer may forcibly detain an armed citizen merely for the possession of a holstered firearm. Any law enforcement officer within this state who so approaches and forcibly detains any citizen merely for the possession of a holstered handgun, without having reasonable articulable suspicion that the citizen had already, was in the process of or was about to commit a crime shall be guilty of a misdemeanor offense punishable by up to 11 months and 29 days in jail.

suntzu said:

So here is a question--how do you propose to make it legal for an individual 18yrs of age to carry a firearm when you have to be 21 to purchase ammunition?

Click to expand...

You do not have to be 21 to possess ammo.

suntzu said:

Second question--I understand your point about being a resident--but how do you propose to determine who is and isn't a resident for purposes of this act? If you differentiate between a resident and a visitor with a permit--then you have to have a way to determine resident status. Since permits are out, and TN is not a stop and ID state--how do you propse to do that?

Click to expand...

WC just took care of that one.

suntzu said:

Third--I still propose that it be such that Section 4 which deletes the requirement to provide a social security number when applying for a permit, and Section 5 which prohibits law enforcement from approaching and detaining an individual merely for the possession of a firearm be kept in the act--we want it to where we can't be detained merely for carrying, and the social security number should not be a requirement for a permit.

Click to expand...

Of course. Isn't that already federal law that SSN would not have to be provided?

Kingfish said:

You do not have to be 21 to possess ammo.

Click to expand...

Well let me correct myself--no you don't have to be 21 to possess ammo, but to purchase handgun ammunition you have to be 21 under federal law--at least that is what all of the signs say that I have seen when I go into a walmart.

Kingfish said:

WC just took care of that one.

Click to expand...

yes he did

Kingfish said:

Of course. Isn't that already federal law that SSN would not have to be provided?

Click to expand...

The only purpose for an SSN is for purposes of social security--but we have become so accustomed to having it used for everything else that now it has become a natural part of "proving" who we are in transactions....39-17-1351 (c)(4) is what I am referring to. As it stands now--you must provide your SSN on the application.

Tenn. Code Annotated 39-17-1351(c) The application for a permit shall be on a standard form developed by the department. The application shall clearly state in bold face type directly above the signature line that an applicant who, with intent to deceive, makes any false statement on the application commits the felony offense of perjury pursuant to § 39-16-702. The following are eligibility requirements for obtaining a handgun carry permit and the application shall require the applicant to disclose and confirm compliance with, under oath, the following information concerning the applicant and the eligibility requirements:

(1) Full legal name and any aliases;

(2) Addresses for the last five (5) years;

(3) Date of birth;

(4) Social security number;

(5) Physical description (height, weight, race, sex, hair color and eye color);

(6) That the applicant has not been convicted of a criminal offense that is designated as a felony, or that is one of the disqualifying misdemeanors set out in subdivisions (c)(11), (c)(16), or (c)(18), with the exception of any federal or state offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade or other similar offenses relating to the regulations of business practices;

(7) That the applicant is not currently under indictment or information for any criminal offense that is designated as a felony, or that is one of the disqualifying misdemeanors set out in subdivisions (c)(11), (c)(16), or (c)(18), with the exception of any federal or state offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade or other similar offenses relating to the regulations of business practices;

(8) That the applicant is not currently subject to any order of protection and, if so, the applicant shall provide a copy of the order;

(9) That the applicant is not a fugitive from justice;

(10) That the applicant is not an unlawful user of or addicted to alcohol or any controlled substance and the applicant has not been a patient in a rehabilitation program or hospitalized for alcohol or controlled substance abuse or addiction within ten (10) years from the date of application;

(11) That the applicant has not been convicted of the offense of driving under the influence of an intoxicant in this or any other state two (2) or more times within ten (10) years from the date of the application and that none of the convictions has occurred within five (5) years from the date of application or renewal;


[Amended effective January 1, 2010. See the Compiler’s Notes.]

(12) That the applicant has not been adjudicated as a mental defective, has not been judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33, has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect, has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of mental illness, developmental disability or other mental incapacity, and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in title 33, chapter 6, part 5, because of mental illness;

(13) That the applicant is not an alien and is not illegally or unlawfully in the United States;

(14) That the applicant has not been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions;

(15) That the applicant has not renounced the applicant's United States citizenship;

(16) That the applicant has not been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(33);

(17) That the applicant is not receiving social security disability benefits by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability; and

(18) That the applicant has not been convicted of the offense of stalking.

The Legislators and even Ramsey who has been declared the pro-gun candidate according to GOA and the NRA are not for our constitutional rights to bear arms. Then you have to deal with the idiots who post on popular Tennessee handgun forums most of whom do not want open carry. I was emailed this post today:

"The more I think about "Constitutional" carry, the more I am coming to the opinion that we (Tennessee) should not go that direction - that it's in the best interest of all concerned (both society at large and those who carry) that before anyone be permitted to legally carry a weapon in public, that person should demonstrate a minimum level of competency with the weapon and with regards to how/when it can be employed and that the person not have a violent/serious criminal history (felonies, stalking, etc. etc).

I'm AM very much in favor of making changes to how/when permits are currently issued, for example:
...that the burden of proof that a person is ineligible (due to felony conviction , etc.) should rest solely on the state (giving real meaning to the phrase "shall issue").

...the cost of obtaining the permit should, a a maximum, be only what is sufficient to cover the administrative costs of doing background checks, etc.

...there should be a maximum amount of time that the state can take to issue the permit.

The above list of changes isn't intended to be exhaustive of course - I'm sure there are other areas/ways this process can be improved but I would suggest that we, as a State, should not move toward "Constitutional" carry and that we continue a permit process which includes background checks and not only should the training currently needed to obtain a permit be continued but that it should be improved/made more relevant and, yes, more difficult.

As I see it, the consequences of what can happen with a misdirected bullet...with a person carrying a firearm who doesn't know how/when to use it or how to use it without endangering others is, in my humble opinion, reason enough to avoid "Constitutional" carry.

All that said, I will admit that I am torn about this issue overall.

On the one hand I believe that the right to keep and bear arms is a natural and individual right. However, I am also, and I think justifiably concerned, about the potentially very bad things that can happen when an inadequately and/or totally untrained individual decides to carry a weapon and is then faced with using it.
"

If the Judge lets them out on bail then he is stating the person is not a danger and therefor should not
be banned from carrying. If he is a danger, then do not allow on the streets.
Takes all the guess work out of should this charge override a persons rights, but not that one.

The biggest problem I can see is that the justice system will confiscate the gun when they make
the arrest, so you would need something to require them to return it with your other items when you
are released.

kwikrnu said:

The Legislators and even Ramsey who has been declared the pro-gun candidate according to GOA and the NRA are not for our constitutional rights to bear arms. Then you have to deal with the idiots who post on popular Tennessee handgun forums most of whom do not want open carry.

Click to expand...

I have talked to people like that as well--again, they see the permit system as some sort of sacred cow that should be worshiped.

kwikrnu said:

I was emailed this post today:

"The more I think about "Constitutional" carry, the more I am coming to the opinion that we (Tennessee) should not go that direction - that it's in the best interest of all concerned (both society at large and those who carry) that before anyone be permitted to legally carry a weapon in public, that person should demonstrate a minimum level of competency with the weapon and with regards to how/when it can be employed and that the person not have a violent/serious criminal history (felonies, stalking, etc. etc).

Click to expand...

Let's be clear on this--that "training" they speak of is 8hrs--8 hours--4 of which you sit in a nice little room with other like minded people and listen to your instructor dutifully tell you how to load and unload a firearm, talk about various Tennessee statutes which deal with firearms, self-defense under the law and a few other things--all of which you can learn about by reading.

Then after you watch a nice film, have your lunch and take a pretty test on the things you have been told--to make sure you understand them-- you then dutifully get into your car and head to the range where you practice with a few rounds of ammunition and then fire 50rds from the 5, 10 and 15yd line and have to hit a minimum score in order to "pass". NOW--if that is what they call training then they need help.

"Training" to me is this: You learn to shoot from cover, fire on the move, first aid, CPR, how to clear your home, proficiency with both long and handgun, weapon retention, clearing a jammed/misfired weapon, unarmed combat, clearing a jammed/misfired weapon weapon under stress, magazine change under stress, cover and concealment, stress management--that is "TRAINING"---that miserable 8hrs they require, where you sit on your butt almost all of it --ISN'T. It is that simple.

kwikrnu said:

I'm AM very much in favor of making changes to how/when permits are currently issued, for example:
...that the burden of proof that a person is ineligible (due to felony conviction , etc.) should rest solely on the state (giving real meaning to the phrase "shall issue").

Click to expand...

We are going to differ on this--I am for Constitutional carry where no permit is needed, and IF they want to mandate training, THEN mandate REAL training--state funded or subsidized training for everyone in this state including basic and advanced firearms training, basic first aid, wound management, CPR, and advanced tactics OR a state wide IDF type draft of everyone into the TNANG for 2yrs--male and female 18-50 and then give them the option of transferring into the RA if that is what they want to do, or they can do their 2yrs in the NG and they are out.

kwikrnu said:

..the cost of obtaining the permit should, a a maximum, be only what is sufficient to cover the administrative costs of doing background checks, etc.

Click to expand...

The permit should cost no more than $50.

kwikrnu said:

...there should be a maximum amount of time that the state can take to issue the permit.

Click to expand...

Considering that with Constitutional Carry no permit would be required--I say the maximum time for permit issue should take no longer than 30 days for those who still want it.

kwikrnu said:

The above list of changes isn't intended to be exhaustive of course - I'm sure there are other areas/ways this process can be improved but I would suggest that we, as a State, should not move toward "Constitutional" carry and that we continue a permit process which includes background checks and not only should the training currently needed to obtain a permit be continued but that it should be improved/made more relevant and, yes, more difficult.

Click to expand...

I and others I know are very much in favor of Constitutional carry--AZ has done it, Alaska has done it--and there has been no problems there. Why should TN be different?

kwikrnu said:

As I see it, the consequences of what can happen with a misdirected bullet...with a person carrying a firearm who doesn't know how/when to use it or how to use it without endangering others is, in my humble opinion, reason enough to avoid "Constitutional" carry.

Click to expand...

Do you really think that permit we carry is a catchall that tells us that mistakes will never happen? AZ and AK have had no problems with it. Why are they successful and TN can't be in your opinion?

Constitutional carry is the only way to go. What we have is a privilege--a privilege is NOT a right and can be rescinded just as easily as they gave it--make no mistake about that.

kwikrnu said:

All that said, I will admit that I am torn about this issue overall.

Click to expand...

You shouldn't be.

kwikrnu said:

On the one hand I believe that the right to keep and bear arms is a natural and individual right. However, I am also, and I think justifiably concerned, about the potentially very bad things that can happen when an inadequately and/or totally untrained individual decides to carry a weapon and is then faced with using it.
"

Click to expand...

Justifiably concerned about what--that the people shouldn't have a right to keep and bear arms unless the state requires them to get a pretty permit?

Again--if training is your concern--talk to your legislators about a state wide IDF type draft of every man and woman 18-50 OR require that the people of this state attend state funded basic/advanced firearms and first aid training so they we can quite hearing about "training".....

kwikrnu said:

"The more I think about "Constitutional" carry, the more I am coming to the opinion that we (Tennessee) should not go that direction - that it's in the best interest of all concerned (both society at large and those who carry) that before anyone be permitted to legally carry a weapon in public, that person should demonstrate a minimum level of competency with the weapon and with regards to how/when it can be employed and that the person not have a violent/serious criminal history (felonies, stalking, etc. etc).

"

Click to expand...

Your case Kwik has proven better than anything how easy it is for the state to rescind a permit--your privilege to carry is gone and while I hope you get your permit back, because you didn't do anything wrong--your case has proven how easy it is to strip you of a Constitutionally protected right based only on the fact that our glorious state has taken a right to bear arms and turned it into a state sponsored privilege.

You have proven that we have a state extended privilege that the state can take back just as easily as they give it--not a right....there is a difference between the two.