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Thread: got pulled over today for OCing

  1. #1
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    got pulled over today for OCing

    around 430pm today i stopped at a gas station to fuel up on my way to my parents and on my way out of the parking lot two police cars pull up with their lights on. it went down pretty much like this:

    officer: sir, do you have a firearm?
    me: yes i am open carrying a sidearm.
    officer: do you have a CPL?
    me: yes, but i dont need one.
    officer: can i see your ID?
    me: why, have i done something wrong?
    officer: i am just making sure you can legally have that pistol.
    (i hand him my ID and he goes back to his car for about 5 minutes)
    officer: you really shouldnt open carry, it scares people.
    me: its my legal right to open carry and you aren't supposed to be pulling me over for it.
    officer: you would want me to check out strange people carrying guns in your neighborhood, right?
    me: nope, as long as they aren't doing any thing illegal they should be left alone.
    officer: ....allright, have a nice day sir.

    while nothing bad happened the overall experiance was unenjoyable and a waste of time, since my folks were making dinner for me and i was running late. i will see what i can do to get in touch with the police chief and talk with him about this.


    -matt
    Last edited by Matt85; 06-30-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Sounds like typical flexing. I would have refused to give them ID. "Am I being detained?" "What reasonable, articulable, suspicion do you have to detain me?" "I will not show you any ID. You need to get a supervisor."

    I do like your response to his question about checking out someone in your neighborhood.

  3. #3
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    Sounds like typical flexing. I would have refused to give them ID. "Am I being detained?" "What reasonable, articulable, suspicion do you have to detain me?" "I will not show you any ID. You need to get a supervisor."

    I do like your response to his question about checking out someone in your neighborhood.
    Everett has a problem with gang activity and some areas are considered very high crime areas. Expect more and more "contacts" by EPD officers when they see OC weapons. Most stops will go just the way this one was described. Confrontational stops will take longer.

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    Deleted after reading the Everett Police Training Bulletin
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-28-2010 at 01:29 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    officer: i am just making sure you can legally have that pistol
    What is your RAS that I can not legally have this pistol??? Am I being detained? No? OK, I would like to end this consensual contact now. Have a good day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    officer: you would want me to check out strange people carrying guns in your neighborhood, right?
    Which part of the RCW which defines "Strange"? Can I call for someone to come and check you out as you are a stranger to me and appear to be carrying a gun.



    Was this Everett PD?
    Last edited by 911Boss; 06-27-2010 at 10:41 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    mat is TOO nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Everett has a problem with gang activity and some areas are considered very high crime areas. Expect more and more "contacts" by EPD officers when they see OC weapons. Most stops will go just the way this one was described. Confrontational stops will take longer.
    giving up your ID is not a guarentee that the stop will end,, there is still plenty the cops can with a compliant citizen!!
    standing up strongly for your rights will help train the cops to respect the rule of law, and should have saved you
    the 5 minutes of your time that the cop wasted checking out your ID!

  7. #7
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    The OPer was traffic-stopped.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The OPer was traffic-stopped.
    On private property?

    MD

    ETA: Further, it was obvious that it was not a traffic stop. First cop question, "Are you armed?" Second cop question, "Do you have a CPL?" No demand for driver's license (only "ID"); no, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" In the entire conversation, as described by the OP, not one word about operation of the car.
    Last edited by Machoduck; 06-27-2010 at 11:47 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Boss View Post
    Was this Everett PD?
    i believe it was everett PD (i was in a hurry so im not 100%)

    ill be calling the everett PD office tommorow and have a talk with em about it.

    -matt

  10. #10
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    Deleted after reading the Everett Police Training Bulletin
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-28-2010 at 01:28 AM.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    What the Hell!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    around 430pm today i stopped at a gas station to fuel up on my way to my parents and on my way out of the parking lot two police cars pull up with their lights on. it went down pretty much like this:

    officer: sir, do you have a firearm?
    me: yes i am open carrying a sidearm.
    officer: do you have a CPL?
    me: yes, but i dont need one.
    officer: can i see your ID?
    me: why, have i done something wrong?
    officer: i am just making sure you can legally have that pistol.
    (i hand him my ID and he goes back to his car for about 5 minutes)
    officer: you really shouldnt open carry, it scares people.
    me: its my legal right to open carry and you aren't supposed to be pulling me over for it.
    officer: you would want me to check out strange people carrying guns in your neighborhood, right?
    me: nope, as long as they aren't doing any thing illegal they should be left alone.
    officer: ....allright, have a nice day sir.

    while nothing bad happened the overall experiance was unejoyable and a waste of time, since my folks were making dinner for me and i was running late. i will see what i can do to get in touch with the police chief and talk with him about this.


    -matt
    The Everett PD training bulletin is here... http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?act...s;sa=view;id=2

    You were pulled over leaving private property and not cited for any traffic infraction?

    You better of gotten the officer's names/badges!
    Live Free or Die!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    You better of gotten the officer's names/badges!
    wish i did...

    all i was thinking about at the time was that i was running late and my mom was cooking ribs for me and my dad, i was completely unprepared to deal with the cops.

    the irony is that the day before i was standing out in front of the walmart smoking a ciggerette and talking with an everett LEO about OCing and he had no issue with it at all, he even said that "people who called 911 over OCers were sheep".

  13. #13
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    I just read the training bulletin.

    The training bulletin throws the whole thing into a different light. It says a CPL is needed for car-carry.

    If the cops saw the OPer get into the car while OCing, they may have been investigating a possible unlicensed car-carry. The fact that the cop asked about the CPL early in the encounter tends to support this idea. The cop may not have pursued seeing the CPL because he knew it would show up on his computer check of the ID (is this true?). Since the OPer consented to giving his ID, we can't really tell for sure whether the cop omitted to demand the CPL for the reason I just gave. If identity documents had been refused, the cop could then have demanded to see the CPL, I assume. (true?)

    While the stop was annoying, it is starting to look like making stick a formal complaint for a 4th Amendment violation is a long and difficult-to-prove shot. However, a formal complaint just for general principles can still be made, and it can include a separate tack that addresses the possibility that the cop made the stop for the wrong reasons. The cop will know whether he did it for the right reasons.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Gray Area?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I just read the training bulletin.

    The training bulletin throws the whole thing into a different light. It says a CPL is needed for car-carry.

    If the cops saw the OPer get into the car while OCing, they may have been investigating a possible unlicensed car-carry. The fact that the cop asked about the CPL early in the encounter tends to support this idea. The cop may not have pursued seeing the CPL because he knew it would show up on his computer check of the ID (is this true?). Since the OPer consented to giving his ID, we can't really tell for sure whether the cop omitted to demand the CPL for the reason I just gave. If identity documents had been refused, the cop could then have demanded to see the CPL, I assume. (true?)

    While the stop was annoying, it is starting to look like making stick a formal complaint for a 4th Amendment violation is a long and difficult-to-prove shot. However, a formal complaint just for general principles can still be made, and it can include a separate tack that addresses the possibility that the cop made the stop for the wrong reasons. The cop will know whether he did it for the right reasons.
    A CPL is only needed for "loaded" car carry. It is not needed to carry openly in the car. How would the officer know? Since it is not ilegal to carry openly (unloaded) in a vehicle, the officer had no RAS. Furthermore, this was a 'traffic stop' and no mention of a traffic violation occured.

    The OCer was in a difficult situation since he was responding to a vehicle stop, yet asked if he had a firearm. Assuming the firearm was loaded then it would be in the OCers best interest to comply with the CPL request. However, the officer had no way to know if the OCer was carrying unloaded (Israeli style) and there is no mention of a check of the firearm.

    This is a very questionable encounter.
    Live Free or Die!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    A CPL is only needed for "loaded" car carry. It is not needed to carry openly in the car. How would the officer know? Since it is not ilegal to carry openly (unloaded) in a vehicle, the officer had no RAS. Furthermore, this was a 'traffic stop' and no mention of a traffic violation occured.

    The OCer was in a difficult situation since he was responding to a vehicle stop, yet asked if he had a firearm. Assuming the firearm was loaded then it would be in the OCers best interest to comply with the CPL request. However, the officer had no way to know if the OCer was carrying unloaded (Israeli style) and there is no mention of a check of the firearm.

    This is a very questionable encounter.
    I agree it was questionable. However, I think it will be easy for the cop to avoid a 4th Amendment (search and seizure) complaint.

    First, cops know OCers carry loaded. And even if they didn't, I'm betting the mere activity of getting into a car with a holstered gun is enough to be suspicious about in the cops' and courts' view. Unless a court has ruled to the contrary already, I am betting that 1) a court would support the cop, and 2) the cops will argue all day long that it is reasonable suspicion.

    Second, there is no law that says a car can't be pulled over on suspicion of something other than a traffic violation. Lots of 4A court opinions where the stop was for suspicion of something else. For example, a confidential informant tipping the cops that drugs were being transported in the car right this very moment.

    Also, there would be plenty of robbers who escape if cops need a traffic violation to pull over a car that matches the description in a robbery in the vicinity of the robbery shortly after the robbery. Basically, the robbers would just have to drive correctly with current plates and good safety equipment.

    I've even read of cars being pulled over on suspicion of casing a neighborhood for a burglary because they lingered too long at a stop sign or drove slower than usual.

    Edited to Add: It occurs to me that you all have stiffer 4th Amendment protections in Washington. Have you got any court rulings that require probable cause for a car stop? For example, in most traffic stops the cop observed the infraction, thus he has probable cause for a seizure (traffic stop), more than just suspicion. This angle--reasonable suspicion vs probable cause--might be worth looking into. Got any court cases that say cops need probable cause to stop a car, rather than just reasonable suspicion?
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-28-2010 at 02:07 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=911Boss;1294918]What is your RAS that I can not legally have this pistol??? Am I being detained? No? OK, I would like to end this consensual contact now. Have a good day.
    ...

    Let's change the cop's question to "...legally carry a loaded pistol in the car..." And 911Boss's reply to it. "What is your RAS that I can not legally carry a loaded pistol in the car? Am I being detained? etc." Same thing, really.

    MD

  17. #17
    Regular Member DavidC77's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The OPer was traffic-stopped.
    This doesn't sound like a "Traffic Stop", from what Matt said (Matt step in if I'm reading this wrong) was he got gas and was leaving the station when two LEO's pulled up to him. It sounds more like some idiot in the store (or area) saw someone with a gun and thought they were robing the station and called the police.

    Why would two police cars come into a gas station and stop him for no reason, it doesn't sound like the LEO's even saw him get into the car (again Matt step in if I'm reading this wrong).

    It's sounds like this is a case of "this got way out of line for a legal gun carrying person".

    It's just something we have to live with when we carry in a culture that doesn't understand guns !!!

    Hope you get somewere with it Matt and you don't stir up a hornets nest.
    "Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway" John Wayne

  18. #18
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    Exclamation Not buying it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I agree it was questionable. However, I think it will be easy for the cop to avoid a 4th Amendment (search and seizure) complaint.

    First, cops know OCers carry loaded. And even if they didn't, I'm betting the mere activity of getting into a car with a holstered gun is enough to be suspicious about in the cops' and courts' view. Unless a court has ruled to the contrary already, I am betting that 1) a court would support the cop, and 2) the cops will argue all day long that it is reasonable suspicion.

    Second, there is no law that says a car can't be pulled over on suspicion of something other than a traffic violation. Lots of 4A court opinions where the stop was for suspicion of something else. For example, a confidential informant tipping the cops that drugs were being transported in the car right this very moment.

    Also, there would be plenty of robbers who escape if cops need a traffic violation to pull over a car that matches the description in a robbery in the vicinity of the robbery shortly after the robbery. Basically, the robbers would just have to drive correctly with current plates and good safety equipment.

    I've even read of cars being pulled over on suspicion of casing a neighborhood for a burglary because they lingered too long at a stop sign or drove slower than usual.

    Edited to Add: It occurs to me that you all have stiffer 4th Amendment protections in Washington. Have you got any court rulings that require probable cause for a car stop? For example, in most traffic stops the cop observed the infraction, thus he has probable cause for a seizure (traffic stop), more than just suspicion. This angle--reasonable suspicion vs probable cause--might be worth looking into. Got any court cases that say cops need probable cause to stop a car, rather than just reasonable suspicion?
    You're right that if an officer wants to stop you he will find an excuse. The problem here is that the OP had the right to leave at any time. If merely getting into a car while OCing is justification for a stop, then how come merely driving a car isn't? After all, you need a license to drive, too.

  19. #19
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Were you still on private property? If so they didnt have any right to stop you and ask anything, from what I understand.

  20. #20
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    I am unclear about something...
    I think the RSW for driving says one must posess a license, which needs to be shown when requested by a cop. Does this mean that, any cop can stop you at any time when you are driving, just to ask for your license??

    ETA: Apparently, according to RSW 46.20.017 here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.20.017
    A cop can request to see your ID any time you are operating a motor vehicle, for whatever reason. That is lame. Don't they need a real reason to check you out? Even if you are driving?
    Last edited by ShooterMcGavin; 06-28-2010 at 05:03 AM.

  21. #21
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    Appears that Everett PD bulletin is in error regarding suppressors aka silencer. Citizens may own and possess them, they just can't "use" them. Sorry for the hijack, carry on.

  22. #22
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Very suspicious this is......

  23. #23
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    not suspicious

    Quote Originally Posted by Poosharker View Post
    Very suspicious this is......
    its just criminal....
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 06-28-2010 at 08:12 AM. Reason: many things to citizen i would say,,, terry v ohio,,, florida v peters,,, wash v spencer,, state v j.l.,, kolander v lawson

  24. #24
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    around 430pm today i stopped at a gas station to fuel up on my way to my parents and on my way out of the parking lot two police cars pull up with their lights on. it went down pretty much like this:

    officer: sir, do you have a firearm?
    me: yes i am open carrying a sidearm.
    officer: do you have a CPL?
    me: yes, but i dont need one.
    officer: can i see your ID?
    me: why, have i done something wrong?
    officer: i am just making sure you can legally have that pistol.
    (i hand him my ID and he goes back to his car for about 5 minutes)
    officer: you really shouldnt open carry, it scares people.
    me: its my legal right to open carry and you aren't supposed to be pulling me over for it.
    officer: you would want me to check out strange people carrying guns in your neighborhood, right?
    me: nope, as long as they aren't doing any thing illegal they should be left alone.
    officer: ....allright, have a nice day sir.

    while nothing bad happened the overall experiance was unejoyable and a waste of time, since my folks were making dinner for me and i was running late. i will see what i can do to get in touch with the police chief and talk with him about this.


    -matt
    You didnít mention if you were loaded while in your vehicle, but if you were you would be required to have your CPL in your possession. Telling the officer you were OC and didnít require is false because you were in a motor vehicle loaded. I think I read that correct.
    RCW 9.41.050
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    legalize!!

    you dont need a CPL to open carry or to carry in the car if its unloaded..
    if stoped for just open carry,, you dont need a CPL.
    you dont need ID
    you just need to shut the fjck up.
    open carry is not RAS of a crime.
    there is no gun exception to the 4th amendment.
    The cops cant just stop you to check if you are allowed to excerize your
    constitutional rights.
    your rights cant stand up for themselves, we each must do that for them.....

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