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Thread: McDonald, Due Process, and The right to BEAR arms in MD?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    McDonald, Due Process, and The right to BEAR arms in MD?

    Although the McDonald decision is a victory for Second Amendment activists, and the law-abiding citizens of Chicago, it's true repercussions are yet to be felt. Incorporating the 2A under the "due process" clause of the 14A sets an interesting precedent, and has possibly serious ramifications for states like MD.

    MD's arbitrary and unconstitutional carry permit issuance policies should now come under direct attack from organizations like Maryland Shall Issue. The State of MD should be expecting lawsuits to be filed soon regarding their arbitrary licensing policies, which not only violate the 2A but are in direct conflict with the "due process clause", and although the MD courts (both state and federal) will most certainly do everything they can to disregard the SCOTUS ruling, the appeals process will most certainly bring such a case before the SCOTUS of the lower courts do so.

    The law-abiding citizens of MD have much to rejoice for with this ruling, but the change will not be instant, or easy. Restoring the right to keep and especially to BEAR arms in MD will be an uphill battle, despite the obvious failure of "gun control" policies in that state, and despite the strong support for restoring this right by a vocal and politically active segment of the MD population. The McDonald ruling, although important, is merely the opening move in what will most likely be a long and difficult battle to restore the rights of law-abiding citizens.

    The people of MD need to rally behind groups like "Maryland Shall Issue", GOA and the NRA, and do whatever they can to put pressure on Annapolis and Pikesville--to send the message that in MD, like in EVERY state of the union, the power of government comes from the PEOPLE, and the people expect their elected representatives to uphold their oaths to support the US Constitution, and the Rule of Law.

    Through lawsuits, elections, and public education, we CAN restore the RKBA in states like MD. The elected representatives of MD need to be sent the message--in no uncertain terms--that if they continue to support policies of unconstitutional (and now illegal) restriction of gun ownership and lawful carry, they will be brought before the Courts, and if necessary, put on the unemployment lines on election day.

    Hurray for Otis McDonald. Hurray for the SCOTUS. And let us all pray that the elected officials in Annapolis will come to their senses and begin upholding their oaths to uphold and defend the Rule of Law of this Nation.

    Citizens of MD--the ball is now in YOUR court. The forces of Liberty and Law are on your side. And you canrest assured that the citizens in the Free States that surround your borders will do whatever we can to aid your cause. But also know that MD is YOUR state, and only through YOUR dedicated, focused, and concerted efforts can you regain your natural rights.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Maryland Shall Issue?

    Why would one need to buy a permission slip from the corrupt government of Maryland in order to exercise a fundamental right?

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    let us all pray that the elected officials in Annapolis will come to their senses and begin upholding their oaths to uphold and defend the Rule of Law of this Nation..
    I'm not holding my beath. But, it's a start.

    Next step is, as mentioned, to ramp up the pressure on the state legislature, in order to redirect their attention on the rights we are attempting to preserve.

    My younger son was home over the weekend, and we talked on gun ownership, and the comparisons between Maryland and Pennsylvania in that regard. He simply could not get his head around how idiotic MD's laws are. I even told him that, if he could, he shouldn't even consider moving back to Maryland at this point.

    SCOTUS is finally on the right track. Let's build on it.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Baby steps, Thundar, baby steps...

    Also, in MD, the permit is NOT specified for CC. It is called a "Permit to Carry a Handgun", and nowhere in the state statute is there a requirement that it must be carried concealed...

    Several municipalities DO have prohibitions on "public display of a firearm" which includes a properly holstered handgun (Rockville, Chevy Chase, Tacoma Park, etc).

    But unless a local law prohibits OC, there is no state law in MD that prohibits OC of a handgun, if you have a "permission slip". We need to get rid of the permit requirement for ALL modes of carry, but in a state like MD, it's going to be a slow, incremental process, because there are DECADES of propaganda, social programming, and outright lies to overcome with the populace.

    The MAIN problem with MD is that of the 80,000+ "permission slips" they have currently issued, fewer than 1200 of them are issued to regular citizens and are not "job related". That, an MD does not recognize the permits of ANY other state. They also have egregious transport laws, and do not recognize "self defense" as a valid reason to be issued a permit. Now that McDonald has SPECIFICALLY listed "self defense" as part of the 2A, n incorporated the 2A against the states, it should become VERY difficult for Gov. O'Malley, Col. Sheridan, and Mayor Rawlings-Blake to continue their oppressive, unconstitutional, and civil-rights-violating agenda of public disarmament.

    It has long been the official position of the MSP and the MD AG that because MD has no RKBA clause in it's state constitution that the US Constitution 2A does not apply in MD.

    They'll have to come up with a new excuse now, because regardless of what THEY want to believe, the SCOTUS has ruled that the 2A DOES apply in all 50 states.

    So, Gov. O'Malley, Col. Sheridan, we hope you are hungry, because there's a big fat serving of crow coming your way for dinner tonight... Or in the specific case of MD's gun laws, perhaps we should say "Jim Crow"...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-22-2010 at 01:46 PM.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    I'm not holding my beath. But, it's a start.

    Next step is, as mentioned, to ramp up the pressure on the state legislature, in order to redirect their attention on the rights we are attempting to preserve.

    My younger son was home over the weekend, and we talked on gun ownership, and the comparisons between Maryland and Pennsylvania in that regard. He simply could not get his head around how idiotic MD's laws are. I even told him that, if he could, he shouldn't even consider moving back to Maryland at this point.

    SCOTUS is finally on the right track. Let's build on it.

    Maryland gun laws are tearing families apart!

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Maryland gun laws are tearing families apart!
    LOL!!

    Not in this case, but I'd not be surprised.......

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    Their precedent cases are pretty much toast as a result of Heller/McDonald. The new "out" for MD courts relating to CCWs is that McDonald didn't say anything about CCWs, so we can do what we want.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    Their precedent cases are pretty much toast as a result of Heller/McDonald. The new "out" for MD courts relating to CCWs is that McDonald didn't say anything about CCWs, so we can do what we want.
    Maryland does not issue "CCW's". They issue a "Permit to Carry A Handgun". There is no stipulation in the statute, or on the permit itself that you must carry concealed. IT is like the PA permits--it is a permit to CARRY, and it's up to the individual whether to CC or OC. In many areas of MD, OC (with a permit) is perfectly legal--especially in the eastern and western rural counties.

    So McDonald will have a DIRECT impact on MD's permit issuance policy. Justice Ilito specifically used the entire language of the 2A in his ruling--The right to keep AND bear arms". So although the case was specifically about KEEPING certain kinds of arms, the ENTIRE 2A was incorporated by the SCOTUS against the states. The old excuse that the MD AG and Courts have used for decades to supports their effective ban on carry is that the MD state constitution has no RKBA provision, and therefore the US Constitution 2A does not apply in MD.

    The SCOTUS has ruled that (sorry O'Malley), the 2A DOES apply in MD (and every other US State). So they need to come up with another reason to deny law-abiding citizens permits, and are on perilous ground with regards to their complete ban on unlicensed OC.

    It's gong to be a LONG hard process. Don't look for unicened OC in MD soon. But it is entirely possible that their permit process could be brought into line with the VAST majority of the other states within the next year. If the GA can't get MD to change to "Shall Issue", then the Courts surely will. We'd like to keep it out of the courts, and would prefer that Annapolis just "did the right thing" and changed the law to "Shall Issue". But if they won't, then there are always the Courts, and rest assured, in MD, it will NOT be an easy, swift, or clean process. The AG and MSP will happily fabricate statistics, manipulate data, and flat-out lie on the stand if they have to, to try and keep MD in a state of unarmed serfdom.

    But Truth will out...

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    Yes, I'm aware MD's is a "Permit to Carry a Handgun." I use CCW since it's much shorter and people basically know what it means.
    From what I can tell, the new "out" for the MD(and NJ,NY,exc.) courts is going to be that Heller/McDonald only ruled you couldn't ban guns in the home. They'll also try to twist an appelant's case into a "concealed weapons permit", and use the concealed weapons prohibition mentioned in Heller. They'll also probably try to claim that you're looking for an "absolute" right to carry a weapon.
    See this case(NJ): http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...00000000000002

    NJ also has the same "Permit to Carry a Handgun"

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    Yes, I'm aware MD's is a "Permit to Carry a Handgun." I use CCW since it's much shorter and people basically know what it means.

    Ah, therein lies the rub...

    Most "gun people" know what you mean. But most "antis" and uneducated have been brainwashed for DECADES through movies, TV shows, and news reports to associate the term "CCW" and Carrying a Concealed Weapon" with a CRIME. The media has ONLY associated this term with a criminal act for decades--they NEVER use it to describe a lawfully carried firearms.

    So when Concealed Carry activists use this term when speaking to non-gunnies, it will IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT FAIL evoke a feeling of fear, suspicion, and loathing from them, because they've been programmed by decades of media use of this term in a criminal context.

    Public Relations is a very precise science. It's not just about doing polls and taste tests. It's about MOLDING public opinion with intent and design.

    Until the pro-gun people in MD realize that, and start acting like they're actually SERIOUS and approach this issue with a level of professional focus that is at least as high as the average dish-washing detergent advertisement (which they DON'T), they will continue to struggle against an uneducated (but VERY effectively brainwashed) public, and some unimaginably evil and duplicitous politicians.

    Hows that old saying go?

    Insanity is performing the same act OVER AND OVER and expecting different results each time.

    Wake up, MD. Time to change course.

    The Police see everyone as a potential criminal, and will gladly lie, twist the facts, and commit perjury to maintain the status quo--their track record with the Federal Courts is a $100 MILLION chain of evidence...

    Annapolis sees the gun-rights movement as a DIRECT THREAT to their power, because it success means that there will be a LOT of people in MD who aren't WWW (white, wealthy, or well-connected) with guns, and that scares the $H!T out of them. They will gladly make things up, slander you in the press, and demonize you at every opportunity to keep that from happening.

    Time to start acting like ACTIVISTS, and get off your high horse of "facts" and "truth" and "statistics". Time to start "playing the game", because in MD, if you can't game the system, you are just spinning your wheels...

    Go read some Bernays for chrissake. it's not like this is new. PR has been around for 100 years. Why don't you people GET it, that this process isn't about "facts" or "statistics" or even the "legislative process" or "scholarly discussions about rights". This is about PUBLIC OPINION. And to effect THAT, you can't use boring facts, or thick academic studies, or government statistics. The average person has an attention span of about 28 seconds. They are more concerned with the latest basketball scores than they are about "freedom" or "liberty". As long as they can get NCAA games on cable, their world is just fine...

    Wake up MD. The "gun rights" orgs are all picking your pockets, taking your money for a promise they are not prepared or equipped to fulfill. They have been using the same unsuccessful tactics for nearly a decade, and when suggestions are made that they use tactics that are a little more "aggressive" or that they focus on the PEOPLE of Md rather than the politicians, they demonize such suggestions as "saying things that will work against us"...

    I'm starting to wonder who this "us" in the MD pro-2A community really is...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-22-2010 at 01:52 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    The Maryland permit is called one thing in the law, but it is 99% a permit to carry a concealed weapon; the exception being that a "handgun" is the only weapon that requires a permit to carry it openly (machine guns and "assault pistols" excluded from this discussion).

    The Maryland Permit to Carry a Handgun authorizes a permit holder to carry concealed weapons other than handguns. See Maryland Criminal Law Article 񘂋01, Dangerous Weapons. For example, it is generally lawful to openly carry a bowie knife on one's person, without a permit, but they must meet one of the qualifications in 񘂋01(b) in order to lawfully conceal a bowie knife on their person.

    Some people now use the term "CCW permit" to label permits that apply to the concealment of weapons in general.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Statute, schmatute...

    You just aren't listening are you...

    How many people in the general public in MD who are anti-gun have read )or even give a flying hoot about) the MD Statutes, and it's classifications of and exemption of "weapons"? I'd say that would be really close to a big fat ZERO...

    It's not about the exact wording of the law. It's not about case law. It's not about how the law is actually applied, or to what intent it was enacted.

    The term "CCW" is POISON in terms of Public Opinion. We in teh 2A world know what is meant, but WE aren't the people who need to change. It's the general public--and in MD that is a WHOLE LOT MORE people than the 2A community. And for them--the people who don't care about 2A rights, or the people who are against 2A rights--the term "CCW" is POINSON. We need to stop using it. It evokes a VISCERAL response in the public. It subconsiously activates a "fight or flight" response based on decades of conditioning through the media that has taught them that ANYONE who is associated with CCW MUST be a criminal.

    Because the PEOPLE largely don't know and don't care about all those things. They are more concerned with rush hour traffic, meeting their mortgage, getting tickets to the next Wizards game, or what's happinging on "Survivor" this week...

    Just use the proper term for the permit. How hard is that? Use "PTCH"--it's one extra letter, for chrissake. Are you SO hell-bent on saving ONE LETTER when you type that you would rather use a loaded, poisoned term that is GUARANTEED to work AGAINST your cause, than just typing ONE MORE FREAKING LETTER?

    No wonder MD is so messed up...


    This is NOT a fight about facts, or the intricacies of words, or the intent of a specific law. It is a battle for the MINDS of the people of MD. And until the "gun rights" activists in the MD area realize that, and ACT UPON THAT in a meaningful, focused, and scientific way, they will continue to have their rights stripped away.

    It's ALL about PERCEPTION. And folks in the 2A movement in the MD area need to wake the F*** up to that fact.

    To deny this is to INTENTIONALLY work toward self-defeat.

    The people of MD are no more or less intelligent than anywhere else. They are no more or less helpless than anywhere else. They are no more inherently enslaveable than anywhere else. And yet they continue to buy into this "all guns are bad" mentality, and elect public servants who exercise utter disregard for fundamental human rights.

    Why is that?

    It's not because the people of MD are stupid. (although there are a few top leaders in the MD 2A movement who really do believe that is the case...) There are a LOT of very highly educated, articulate, and creative people in MD.

    It's because the anti's pour a TON of effort into keeping the people brainwashed to believe the lie that "government will protect you" and "all guns are evil--even in the hands of law-abiding people". Through the focused, concerted effort of the Government, the media, and community outreach (primarily religious institutions), the people of MD have been hammered and pounded with FUD, lies, and false promises of security for DECADES, and they just don't know any better.

    Unfortunately, MD culture is VERY stratified. Even the "good guys" seem to think that the "ordinary folk" are beyond hope, and they refuse to even consider that PUBLIC OPINION is the most powerful weapon in MD politics. They would rather have showy trials, with rockstar lawyers, and get their names in the paper as "almost winning" the next big case than actually admit that their fellow MD citizens--ALL the citizens of MD--are equal, sovereign, and deserving of their rights.

    Jim Crow dances on BOTH sides of the gun debate in MD.

    He's dancing to the tune of "the right kinds of people" being played by BOTH sides.

    Meanwhile the PEOPLE of MD are getting trampled by his shiny, hobnailed jackboots in the media frenzy of "Look At Me" being played by both sides...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-23-2010 at 01:50 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Statute, schmatute...

    You just aren't listening are you...

    How many people in the general public in MD who are anti-gun have read )or even give a flying hoot about) the MD Statutes, and it's classifications of and exemption of "weapons"? I'd say that would be really close to a big fat ZERO...

    It's not about the exact wording of the law. It's not about case law. It's not about how the law is actually applied, or to what intent it was enacted.

    The term "CCW" is POISON in terms of Public Opinion. We in teh 2A world know what is meant, but WE aren't the people who need to change. It's the general public--and in MD that is a WHOLE LOT MORE people than the 2A community. And for them--the people who don't care about 2A rights, or the people who are against 2A rights--the term "CCW" is POINSON. We need to stop using it. It evokes a VISCERAL response in the public. It subconsiously activates a "fight or flight" response based on decades of conditioning through the media that has taught them that ANYONE who is associated with CCW MUST be a criminal.

    Because the PEOPLE largely don't know and don't care about all those things. They are more concerned with rush hour traffic, meeting their mortgage, getting tickets to the next Wizards game, or what's happinging on "Survivor" this week...

    Just use the proper term for the permit. How hard is that? Use "PTCH"--it's one extra letter, for chrissake. Are you SO hell-bent on saving ONE LETTER when you type that you would rather use a loaded, poisoned term that is GUARANTEED to work AGAINST your cause, than just typing ONE MORE FREAKING LETTER?

    No wonder MD is so messed up...


    This is NOT a fight about facts, or the intricacies of words, or the intent of a specific law. It is a battle for the MINDS of the people of MD. And until the "gun rights" activists in the MD area realize that, and ACT UPON THAT in a meaningful, focused, and scientific way, they will continue to have their rights stripped away.

    It's ALL about PERCEPTION. And folks in the 2A movement in the MD area need to wake the F*** up to that fact.

    To deny this is to INTENTIONALLY work toward self-defeat.

    The people of MD are no more or less intelligent than anywhere else. They are no more or less helpless than anywhere else. They are no more inherently enslaveable than anywhere else. And yet they continue to buy into this "all guns are bad" mentality, and elect public servants who exercise utter disregard for fundamental human rights.

    Why is that?

    It's not because the people of MD are stupid. (although there are a few top leaders in the MD 2A movement who really do believe that is the case...) There are a LOT of very highly educated, articulate, and creative people in MD.

    It's because the anti's pour a TON of effort into keeping the people brainwashed to believe the lie that "government will protect you" and "all guns are evil--even in the hands of law-abiding people". Through the focused, concerted effort of the Government, the media, and community outreach (primarily religious institutions), the people of MD have been hammered and pounded with FUD, lies, and false promises of security for DECADES, and they just don't know any better.

    Unfortunately, MD culture is VERY stratified. Even the "good guys" seem to think that the "ordinary folk" are beyond hope, and they refuse to even consider that PUBLIC OPINION is the most powerful weapon in MD politics. They would rather have showy trials, with rockstar lawyers, and get their names in the paper as "almost winning" the next big case than actually admit that their fellow MD citizens--ALL the citizens of MD--are equal, sovereign, and deserving of their rights.

    Jim Crow dances on BOTH sides of the gun debate in MD.

    He's dancing to the tune of "the right kinds of people" being played by BOTH sides.

    Meanwhile the PEOPLE of MD are getting trampled by his shiny, hobnailed jackboots in the media frenzy of "Look At Me" being played by both sides...
    Public opinion matters for crap. The only opinion that truly matters is the opinions of of 23 people. The federal district judge who sits in the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, the 13 judges (or sitting in a panel of three or en banc thirteen) of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, and the 9 Justices of the United States Supreme Court.

    Fundamental rights are not subject to political will or popular opinion.

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    <<Fundamental rights are not subject to political will or popular opinion.>>

    Not to be flippant, but...

    How familiar are you with life in Maryland?

    It can be said with very little exercise, that the rights of Marylanders (and visitors) are very heavily influenced by "political will".

    But for an (almost) 8-year stint in California, I've lived my whole life here, and I can tell you that politics are very much in play when it comes to how people are able to go about their daily business.

    Not just gun rights... but taxation, public services, the manipulation of the electoral process, and many other things we could say are related to "fundamental rights" are held in utter contempt by the elected officials who, by and large, have no interest other than maintaining the balance of power here.

    There are some EOs who are attempting to make a difference, but they are not yet in positions to have an effect on the stranglehold our House Speaker and Senate President (and the AG--can't forget that one!!) have on the legislative works.

    We call it many things... People's Republic of Maryland, The Great Tax Hell of Maryland, or (my personal favorite) Absurdistan... but it is now anything BUT its traditional name, "The Free State". Ain't NUTTIN' free here, any more.

    I love my home... don't get me wrong... but if the wife and I weren't firmly and productively entrenched in the march toward retirement, I'd be out of here in a half-heartbeat.
    Last edited by Mr H; 07-24-2010 at 02:31 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr H View Post
    <<Fundamental rights are not subject to political will or popular opinion.>>

    Not to be flippant, but...

    How familiar are you with life in Maryland?

    It can be said with very little exercise, that the rights of Marylanders (and visitors) are very heavily influenced by "political will".

    But for an (almost) 8-year stint in California, I've lived my whole life here, and I can tell you that politics are very much in play when it comes to how people are able to go about their daily business.

    Not just gun rights... but taxation, public services, the manipulation of the electoral process, and many other things we could say are related to "fundamental rights" are held in utter contempt by the elected officials who, by and large, have no interest other than maintaining the balance of power here.

    There are some EOs who are attempting to make a difference, but they are not yet in positions to have an effect on the stranglehold our House Speaker and Senate President (and the AG--can't forget that one!!) have on the legislative works.

    We call it many things... People's Republic of Maryland, The Great Tax Hell of Maryland, or (my personal favorite) Absurdistan... but it is now anything BUT its traditional name, "The Free State". Ain't NUTTIN' free here, any more.

    I love my home... don't get me wrong... but if the wife and I weren't firmly and productively entrenched in the march toward retirement, I'd be out of here in a half-heartbeat.
    Did you read the first part of what you quoted from me?

    Political will and influencing public opinion does not matter. Convincing the Maryland public, the voting public, the political class of Maryland, and so on, to issue PTCH's is like trying to convince Alabama's government and voters to voluntarily desegregate it's public facilities circa 1950.

    That is what I'm talking about in terms of "It doesn't matter about political will or public opinion". If a federal judge declares the current issuance policy of the Maryland State Police unconstitutional, then that's really it. The plaintiffs and the organizations suing the MSP have to petition to have a court appoint a special master to be sure they aren't pulling crap. Remember that certain school districts in this country where under a special master appointed by federal judges for over 2 decades before they were finally declared "unitary status".

    The rest of the political issues with taxes, and such, it may be a symptom of a similar mindset with being anti-gun, but that is not what I'm focusing on. I am focusing on the Maryland State Police's issuance policy and it's effects on both the residents and visitors of Maryland.

  16. #16
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Statute, schmatute...

    You just aren't listening are you...
    Are you talking to me? I merely stated two facts. I'm not on a soapbox here; there's nothing between the lines of my post. Do you seriously think that my posting to this thread of two facts about the Maryland PTCH and the use of the CCW initialism is undermining or threatening your agenda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Just use the proper term for the permit. How hard is that? Use "PTCH"--it's one extra letter, for chrissake. Are you SO hell-bent on saving ONE LETTER when you type that you would rather use a loaded, poisoned term that is GUARANTEED to work AGAINST your cause, than just typing ONE MORE FREAKING LETTER?
    Is this in reply to my post, too? I don't and haven't called it a CCW. To whom are you preaching?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    If a federal judge declares the current issuance policy of the Maryland State Police unconstitutional, then that's really it.

    Yeah, and I'm sure the MD AG, Government, and MSP would INSTANTLY hop right into line--JUST LIKE they did in DC and Chicago...

    No, what would happen in MD is that the MSP would make up an entirely NEW set of rules and requirements for permits that were even MORE egregious, byzantine, and politically-slanted than the ones they already have.

    JUST LIKE they did in DC and Chicago...

    If you don't believe that Public Opinion and PR can't change things, then you are either delusional or you haven't studied much recent history. Every single major social change in the US in the last 100 years was fundamentally shaped--and forced into implementation--by the intentional, organized, and scientific molding of public opinion.

    Prohobition. Reapeal of Prohobition. Illegalizing "marijuana". Civil Rights. Abortion. Women's rights. Eating bacon and eggs for breakfast. Every war we've been in since 1900. Post 911 policy. The rise of the suburb. Malls. The Internet. on and on and on...

    Wake up. Your reality is being created FOR you. And the people who are attempting to create it are NOT on the side of freedom.

    I'm just saying that it's time that the "good guys"--people who are really interested in LIBERTY and FREEDOM get in on this game, and stop spinning their wheels with statistics and studies and formally addressing legislators. The general publi chas an attention span of about 28 seconds. Legislators only listen to their biggest campaign contributors.

    But the PEOPLE can make a difference. We need to approach this like the civil rights activist approached the Selma Sanitation Workers strike, or the lunch counter sit-ins, or other such actions. We need to make these "anti's" look like the evil, racist, classist scum they are. We need the People to adopt a mindset that sees "gun control" as something that is just as intolerable and repulsive as segregated water fountains. We need the general public to start thinking that they don't just have the right to protect themselves, but that it is their DUTY...

    The people who are interested in 2A rights in states like MD, CA IL, and NJ are a tiny minority. We need to change those numbers. And we're NOT going to do it talking about the 2A. We're NOT going to do it talking about "CCW" or "Open Carry". We're not going to do it talking abou tthe lofty, intricate, noble language of the Constitution, or the Founding Fathers.

    We're going to do it by bringing the issue to the PEOPLE--directly to each and every INDIVIDUAL, on a personal, visceral, and familial level.

    Hearts and minds, people. That should be our REAL focus...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-25-2010 at 01:29 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Are you talking to me? I merely stated two facts. I'm not on a soapbox here; there's nothing between the lines of my post. Do you seriously think that my posting to this thread of two facts about the Maryland PTCH and the use of the CCW initialism is undermining or threatening your agenda?
    Yes. It is. The term "CCW" is POISON. The "anti's" poisoned that well DECADES ago, through a focused agenda of using that term over and over and over again in every cop show and crime drama on TV and the movies.

    To the general public--people who either aren't concerned with, or are actively against 2A rights, the term "CCW" means only ONE thing--something a criminal is doing right before he pulls out a gun and robs, mugs, rapes, or murders someone. This term is so ingrained in the public consciousness as a BAD thing that using it to try and discuss 2A rights is socio-political suicide.

    That, and the fact that there is not a single state in the union that issues concealed carry permits that called their permit a "CCW". Nobody in the US has a card issued by ANY government agency called a "CCW". There is NO SUCH THING.
    "CCW" is a crime. It is NOT a permit.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I'm BEGGING all 2A activists to STOP using this term. It is poison. It is cancer. It is evil. It is counterproductive to our cause. And on top of all that, it is a CRIME, not a permit... Please... I'm begging you...


    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Is this in reply to my post, too? I don't and haven't called it a CCW. To whom are you preaching?
    Yes I know you don't use it yourself. But you DID justify its use. And that is just as intolerable. This term is POISON. We need to walk away from it.

    We need to ALL stop using this term. We need to convince all our friends who carry (open or concealed) to stop using it. We need to pound on the pro-2A press and organizations to stop using it.

    This term is POISON. Every time a pro-2A person uses it, we should treat them like they just had a ND in a playground, because using this term produces the same reaction in the general public, and is JUST as inexcusable to people who know, use, and respect firearms.

    Call it a "permit". Call it a "License". Call it a "permission slip". Call it a "Jim Crow Card". Call it by it's REAL name in your respective state.

    But DON'T use the term that the Anti's designed specifically to work against us.

    Please, I'm BEGGING you all. Stop using this term. We shoot ourselves (metaphorically) in the foot EVERY time we use it.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, and I'm sure the MD AG, Government, and MSP would INSTANTLY hop right into line--JUST LIKE they did in DC and Chicago...

    No, what would happen in MD is that the MSP would make up an entirely NEW set of rules and requirements for permits that were even MORE egregious, byzantine, and politically-slanted than the ones they already have.

    JUST LIKE they did in DC and Chicago...

    No, what would happen in MD is that the MSP would make up an entirely NEW set of rules and requirements for permits that were even MORE egregious, byzantine, and politically-slanted than the ones they already have.
    Let me clue you in on something at least in regards the lawsuits against DC and Chicago versus a lawsuit filed against the MSP for the way they enforce "good and substantial reason".

    In the case against the District of Columbia and the later case against Chicago, those were both against municipal codes and statutes. The problem with asking for strike downs of municipal codes and statutes is that the cities can just write new laws, like what happened in Chicago and DC.

    In the Sykes and Peruta cases, those were lawsuits to make "good cause" to be "self defense" and "good moral character" to be "not prohibited by law", and that may really means shall in a legal context. They are essentially policy directives by the federal courts to the issuing authority to stop enforcing a mealy mouth statute that gives them discretion to deny and basically forces them to issue freely in order to comply with the U.S. constitution.

    The Maryland State Police, when given a directive by a federal judge that "good and substantial reason" means "self defense", The MSP will not be able to put in Byzantine requirements like DC and Chicago did. Remember, it's a constitutional ruling against the way a POLICY is enforced, not the actual statute or statutory prohibition. The federal courts have had long experience in enforcing their decisions and decrees. If the Superintendent of the State Police refuses to comply with the court ruling, he will be held in contempt and then he will be picked up by the US Marshal's Court Security Services Division and taken to the local federal holding facility until he complies with the law, by signing the order inside of the jail cell. If they try to pass byzantine requirements, the federal judge will hold the superintendent in contempt, and a refusal to comply will mean a US Marshals escort to a federal holding facility.

    Contrast this with the Palmer case (which is seeking to strike down the District of Columbia's total carry ban), and my case (which seeks to strike down the state residency requirement before acquiring a CHL in the city and county of Denver, CO). Though DC could rewrite the statute if Palmer wins, If I win my case against Denver, Denver cannot rewrite the statute themselves since it is a function of state law and the Legislature cannot just simply rewrite the law to revoke my license or cause problems, as there is no political will in Colorado to screw with CCW holders in general, and would likely be injuncted against by the same federal judge in the same case (especially if they try to screw with the validity of the license I paid for, and got a court order to get). Again, these are statutory strike downs.

    The only reason you're not familiar with these concepts is that for the first time, the 2nd amendment has NOW been properly recognized as a fundamental right. Federal injunctions, motions to compel, writs of mandamus, special masters and contempt citations have never been done in 2A cases before because up until McDonald, the very concept of that is foreign and alien to those of us who fought so hard for the right to keep and bear arms. Years of fighting this battles can make one cynical.

    If you don't believe that Public Opinion and PR can't change things, then you are either delusional or you haven't studied much recent history. Every single major social change in the US in the last 100 years was fundamentally shaped--and forced into implementation--by the intentional, organized, and scientific molding of public opinion.

    Prohobition. Reapeal of Prohobition. Illegalizing "marijuana". Civil Rights. Abortion. Women's rights. Eating bacon and eggs for breakfast. Every war we've been in since 1900. Post 911 policy. The rise of the suburb. Malls. The Internet. on and on and on...

    Wake up. Your reality is being created FOR you. And the people who are attempting to create it are NOT on the side of freedom.

    I'm just saying that it's time that the "good guys"--people who are really interested in LIBERTY and FREEDOM get in on this game, and stop spinning their wheels with statistics and studies and formally addressing legislators. The general publi chas an attention span of about 28 seconds. Legislators only listen to their biggest campaign contributors.

    But the PEOPLE can make a difference. We need to approach this like the civil rights activist approached the Selma Sanitation Workers strike, or the lunch counter sit-ins, or other such actions. We need to make these "anti's" look like the evil, racist, classist scum they are. We need the People to adopt a mindset that sees "gun control" as something that is just as intolerable and repulsive as segregated water fountains. We need the general public to start thinking that they don't just have the right to protect themselves, but that it is their DUTY...

    The people who are interested in 2A rights in states like MD, CA IL, and NJ are a tiny minority. We need to change those numbers. And we're NOT going to do it talking about the 2A. We're NOT going to do it talking about "CCW" or "Open Carry". We're not going to do it talking abou tthe lofty, intricate, noble language of the Constitution, or the Founding Fathers.

    We're going to do it by bringing the issue to the PEOPLE--directly to each and every INDIVIDUAL, on a personal, visceral, and familial level.

    Hearts and minds, people. That should be our REAL focus...
    "Hearts and minds" does not work in the face of stubborn opposition and bigtory. Given this logic, Richard and Mildred Loving should have engaged with the "Hearts and Minds" of the people of Virginia, who prohibited their marriage to each other because Mildred was black and Richard was white. Despite the fact that only 25 percent of the population supported the legalization of interracial marriage in 1967, a unanimous Supreme Court still struck down the Virginia Anti-Miscegenation statute. Acceptance came later, sometimes decades later in the southern states, but it came along. Hearts and minds only come around when the conduct you seek to engage in is not considered a criminal offense and impossible to do in practice.

    You notice a major bump in the public opinion polls regarding the right to bear arms when Heller was decided, and another major bump occurred post McDonald. Hearts and minds was about even pre-Heller, but then the anti-gun side began to majorly slide. We are beyond the "Hearts and Minds" point of our struggle. We now have 40 states that are varying different forms of "shall-issue" for self defense, covering fully TWO THIRDS of our country's population. We have 10 hold out states that refuse to properly recognize the RKBA. It is time to start firing up the proper lawsuits to take care of this problem, and as I understand what's going on in Maryland, this is currently underway.

    You get acceptance of RKBA in very anti-gun hold out states like Maryland not from "Hearts and Minds", but having federal judges start throwing Superintendents in jail for refusing to comply with their orders.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    <<SNIP...>>


    The term "CCW" is POISON in terms of Public Opinion. We in teh 2A world know what is meant, but WE aren't the people who need to change. It's the general public--and in MD that is a WHOLE LOT MORE people than the 2A community. And for them--the people who don't care about 2A rights, or the people who are against 2A rights--the term "CCW" is POISON. We need to stop using it. It evokes a VISCERAL response in the public. It subconsiously activates a "fight or flight" response based on decades of conditioning through the media that has taught them that ANYONE who is associated with CCW MUST be a criminal.

    Just use the proper term for the permit. How hard is that? Use "PTCH"--it's one extra letter, for chrissake. Are you SO hell-bent on saving ONE LETTER when you type that you would rather use a loaded, poisoned term that is GUARANTEED to work AGAINST your cause, than just typing ONE MORE FREAKING LETTER?



    I think you might be acting a LITTLE dramatic here... Fight or flight from 3 letters? Come on dude, it's not THAT bad...
    Last edited by Hendu024; 07-25-2010 at 01:00 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendu024 View Post
    I think you might be acting a LITTLE dramatic here... Fight or flight from 3 letters? Come on dude, it's not THAT bad...


    I've been in graphic design, advertising, and PR for 20 years. This is my field of professional expertise.

    Yes, in fact, it IS that bad.

    Because this term has been SCIENTIFICALLY ENGINEERED to create exactly that effect.

    Believe me. I know how this works. Shaping public opinion on certain topics, and using words and images to evoke specific subconscious results in consumers has been my bread and butter for 2 decades...

    If PR doesn't work, then explain why people buy a Lexus? Why would any rational person pay Mercedes Benz prices for a dolled-up Toyota?

    Public Relations, my friend...

    The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the public is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.' --Edward Bernays, the "father" of Public Relations
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-25-2010 at 02:52 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Dreamer,

    I'll admit that I loathe the term CCW, but trying to police people against saying it on a continual basis is an exercise in futility. People will do what they want, and they generally don't like people telling them what to do.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results each time...

    I'm not telling people what to do. I'm just telling them that what they are doing is HUGELY self-defeating. I'm letting folks know that this one little thing is a part of the larger picture of ways that the gun rights movement is being manipulated--with out even knowing it--from the outside, by people who want to take those rights away.

    People can continue to use the term, shooting themself in the foot every time they attempt to engage the other side in rational debate which is IMPOSSIBLE when you use the terms that the other side has defines, and has programmed with negative emotion for decades. Yeah, THAT's an effective strategy...

    But in another 10 years, when MD still doesn't have Shall Issue and has effectively banned the private ownership of ALL handguns, and the People continue to elect racist, classist sociopathic power freaks that ONLY serve their Bankster masters, I WILL be standing in the middle of the town square shouting "I told you so..."
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-25-2010 at 08:03 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression梐nd this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendu024 View Post
    <<SNIP...>>


    The term "CCW" is POISON in terms of Public Opinion. We in teh 2A world know what is meant, but WE aren't the people who need to change. It's the general public--and in MD that is a WHOLE LOT MORE people than the 2A community. And for them--the people who don't care about 2A rights, or the people who are against 2A rights--the term "CCW" is POISON. We need to stop using it. It evokes a VISCERAL response in the public. It subconsiously activates a "fight or flight" response based on decades of conditioning through the media that has taught them that ANYONE who is associated with CCW MUST be a criminal.

    Just use the proper term for the permit. How hard is that? Use "PTCH"--it's one extra letter, for chrissake. Are you SO hell-bent on saving ONE LETTER when you type that you would rather use a loaded, poisoned term that is GUARANTEED to work AGAINST your cause, than just typing ONE MORE FREAKING LETTER?



    I think you might be acting a LITTLE dramatic here... Fight or flight from 3 letters? Come on dude, it's not THAT bad...
    I assume most, even on a gun board, may not get "PTCH". As far as the public goes, you ask them about "Open Carry," and they don't know what you're referring to. But "Concealed carry," now they know what you're talking about. From what I read, many people assume openly carrying is a crime, even with a permit. All permits nationwide allow for concealed carry(and some open carry as well).
    If I'm speaking to someone who doesn't know any better I'll explain more than "CCW". On the gun boards, "CCW" is understood to include ALL permits.

  25. #25
    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Most "gun people" know what you mean. But most "antis" and uneducated have been brainwashed for DECADES through movies, TV shows, and news reports to associate the term "CCW" and Carrying a Concealed Weapon" with a CRIME. The media has ONLY associated this term with a criminal act for decades--they NEVER use it to describe a lawfully carried firearms.

    So when Concealed Carry activists use this term when speaking to non-gunnies, it will IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT FAIL evoke a feeling of fear, suspicion, and loathing from them, because they've been programmed by decades of media use of this term in a criminal context.
    What?

    I was born and raised in MD, and except for 2 years in PA, have lived in this state my whole life. If one is going to be bombarded by anti gun BS, MD is def one state to have it happen, or at least if you live in the central part. Let me re-say that- I was born and raised in CENTRAL MD/BALTIMORE...there that's a lil better.

    Ok, now where is this heavy propaganda about liscensed concealed carry being naughty and dirty and akin to... eating babies and crushing kittens? In central MD, if the media even mentions legal "CCW", it is like seeing an albino platypus. It just plain ISN'T mentioned, except maybe on FOX 45 News at 10. I'm not going to get into what FOX 5 covers out of NoVA. Judging by youtube and searching " open carry", I saw FOX 5 being fair and balanced about OC in VA.

    Ok, back to Baltimore, which basically influences the rest of the central MD conglomerate, and allows too many asshats to get elected and go to Annapolis every spring. I've never seen anything spewing from Baltimore to paint legal "CCW" as dirty and baby eating. In fact, it is nonexistant. THEY don't discuss it. If THEY don't say anything, then it doesn't exist, right?

    Oh nooooes...now this group called MSI emerges and OMG there is also teh Internets!11!! Now people might hear about legal "CCW", and even worst that dreaded " open carry" might even be mentioned!11!! What are THEY going to do now? Ah, ok, so now bad press about "CCW" might start dribbling down from the anus of THEM. But it didn't "exist" until recently.

    If you are refering to Hollywood, I sure don't see much mention of legal citizen "CCW" from these folks. You see Hollywood is like THEM, it doesn't exist because Hollywood stands almost mute on it. A few episodes of "CSI Whatmyass" with some rogue gun owner or a biker gang leader with a " CCW", isn't exactly what I'd call an influence. I mean in "CSI Miami", it is as if there is no such term as " shall-issue", and as if FL is southern Commiefornia. Oh and the escaped psycho slasher film industry would die if all the cheerleaders or football team captains had guns and ammo and knew how to use them.

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