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Thread: Argentine PD says I have no 2nd amendment right

  1. #1
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    Argentine PD says I have no 2nd amendment right

    I went into the Argentine police department two weeks ago to get a pistol purchase permit. I filled out all the paperwork, took the test and was told they needed to do a background check, and to call tomorrow to see if they had it done. Well I called the next day and the receptionist said that I had to be 21 to get a handgun or a permit, [I am 19] and she asked some of the officers there and they said the same thing. I told her that it is only 21 to buy from an FFL such as a gun store, only 18 to buy from a private sale, such as your neighbor. I also told her that it says on the MSP website that the age is 18. She said 'well I'll make some calls and check around, i've got your number so i'll call you back when I find out for sure'. I waited a week and called back and she said she was still trying to figure it out. Two weeks later and I still have not heard anything. Is there anything I can do about this? (other than pay a lawyer 1000 bucks to go in and say 'hey give my client the permit') Also, do you have to go to the PD of the city you live in to get a permit? Could I go to Linden or Fenton and get one?

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    You could start by going into the county and ask them if they will do it since your local one refuses, explain politely the situation and if they won't, as they probably won't, ask them if perhaps someone could call them and explain the law, since the local PD doesn't appear to know anything about anything firearms related.

    Your next venue would be the city council, or the directly to the city attorney. Explain your case, explain you have been denied a right given to you under the state constitution and would like the matter rectified right away. Keep pushing, keep moving up the ladder. If you don't get anywhere and don't wish to sue or go the lawyer route, I would contact the MOC regional coordinator for your area and ask them if they or someone else in the organization might accompany you down to the police station to explain the law.

    This is pretty common sense stuff, I am amazed they did not already handle this for you in a timely manner.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockStrongo View Post
    I went into the Argentine police department two weeks ago to get a pistol purchase permit. I filled out all the paperwork, took the test and was told they needed to do a background check, and to call tomorrow to see if they had it done. Well I called the next day and the receptionist said that I had to be 21 to get a handgun or a permit, [I am 19] and she asked some of the officers there and they said the same thing. I told her that it is only 21 to buy from an FFL such as a gun store, only 18 to buy from a private sale, such as your neighbor. I also told her that it says on the MSP website that the age is 18. She said 'well I'll make some calls and check around, i've got your number so i'll call you back when I find out for sure'. I waited a week and called back and she said she was still trying to figure it out. Two weeks later and I still have not heard anything. Is there anything I can do about this? (other than pay a lawyer 1000 bucks to go in and say 'hey give my client the permit') Also, do you have to go to the PD of the city you live in to get a permit? Could I go to Linden or Fenton and get one?
    Here is the Law in question!


    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.

    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:

    (i) Section 464a of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.

    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.

    (iii) Section 2950 of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.

    (iv) Section 2950a of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.

    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.

    (vi) Section 6b of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.

    (vii) Section 16b of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.

    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.

    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:

    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.

    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.

    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.

    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.

    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.

    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.

    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.

    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.

    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.

    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.

    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.

    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.

    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.

    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.

    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:

    (a) The person's home of record.

    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.

    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.

    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.

    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.

    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.

    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.

    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.

    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.

    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.

    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:

    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.

    (b) Safe storage of pistols.

    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.

    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.

    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.

    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.

    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.

    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).

    I have had some success in printing the law off and making the Chief read it.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northofnowhere View Post
    You could start by going into the county and ask them if they will do it since your local one refuses, explain politely the situation and if they won't, as they probably won't, ask them if perhaps someone could call them and explain the law, since the local PD doesn't appear to know anything about anything firearms related.

    Your next venue would be the city council, or the directly to the city attorney. Explain your case, explain you have been denied a right given to you under the state constitution and would like the matter rectified right away. Keep pushing, keep moving up the ladder. If you don't get anywhere and don't wish to sue or go the lawyer route, I would contact the MOC regional coordinator for your area and ask them if they or someone else in the organization might accompany you down to the police station to explain the law.

    This is pretty common sense stuff, I am amazed they did not already handle this for you in a timely manner.
    You may be surprised what a call in your official MOC Capacity may shake loose... I have already done this with a couple of local police Departments that felt they were above the law on this in relation to purchase permits and 18 to 21 yr olds.

    I usually read to them directly from the MCL and then if they have questions email them the direct link to the copy on the MI legislative website. If that doesn't work a personal visit likely will.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  5. #5
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockStrongo View Post
    I went into the Argentine police department two weeks ago to get a pistol purchase permit. I filled out all the paperwork, took the test and was told they needed to do a background check, and to call tomorrow to see if they had it done. Well I called the next day and the receptionist said that I had to be 21 to get a handgun or a permit, [I am 19] and she asked some of the officers there and they said the same thing. I told her that it is only 21 to buy from an FFL such as a gun store, only 18 to buy from a private sale, such as your neighbor. I also told her that it says on the MSP website that the age is 18. She said 'well I'll make some calls and check around, i've got your number so i'll call you back when I find out for sure'. I waited a week and called back and she said she was still trying to figure it out. Two weeks later and I still have not heard anything. Is there anything I can do about this? (other than pay a lawyer 1000 bucks to go in and say 'hey give my client the permit') Also, do you have to go to the PD of the city you live in to get a permit? Could I go to Linden or Fenton and get one?
    If I lived near you I would go to the police station with you and stratin things out in person. I will send you a PM right now, that WILL (or at least better) work so check it and fallow it please.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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  6. #6
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    RockStrongo are you a resident of Argentine twp. or city of Linden? you can PM me if you
    dont want to say on the forum. Im available tomorrow afternoon to go down there with you.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Hell he's not far from a lot members including Venator, Stainless1911 to name a couple. Maybe someone could go with him. I mean no disrespect here but his "young" appearance is probably part of their problem with him...they figure he'll get side tracked with a new video game or some other distraction & just let it go.

    Map link below
    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=linden...ed=0CBMQ8gEwAA
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 06-29-2010 at 01:25 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    I'll go with you if you wanna pick me up, I will even help you with my "five step program" I PMed you.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    RockStrongo are you a resident of Argentine twp. or city of Linden? you can PM me if you
    dont want to say on the forum. Im available tomorrow afternoon to go down there with you.
    You are a good man DB! You make me proud to call myself an OCer! Hats off to you Sir!

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    I'll go with you if you wanna pick me up, I will even help you with my "five step program" I PMed you.
    +1,000,000,000

  11. #11
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    +1,000,000,000
    lets both go
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  12. #12
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Heres a neat link to report a crime in Argentine township. maybe a few people could report
    a violation of someones 2nd amendment rights. http://argentinetownship.com/RAC.htm

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    lets both go
    Me? Or you & DB?

    If I go I'll have to bring my 2yr along & then those SOBs at the PD station will be sorry! She takes no prisoners!

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroitbiker View Post
    heres a neat link to report a crime in argentine township. Maybe a few people could report
    a violation of someones 2nd amendment rights. http://argentinetownship.com/rac.htm
    done!


  15. #15
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Me? Or you & DB?

    If I go I'll have to bring my 2yr along & then those SOBs at the PD station will be sorry! She takes no prisoners!
    All of us, including the kid, ahahahaha!
    To be honest, I don't work anymore due to my accedent, and other than the physcal therpy I am WIDE open, and am bored all the time so I will go whenever, I can even move a physcal therpy appointment to the next day. Not to mention I like to OC in police stations, because it opens up a diolog with police officers about OC. And logic usally wins!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Well I'll have to clear it with Mrs G9mmOS she gets a little spooked by pistols -OCers / *COPS* & the midget in the mix, but maybe I can con granny into taking her for a couple of hours? Send me a PM as the details come in on time etc... I would like to help if possible.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 06-29-2010 at 02:01 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Well I'll have to clear it with Mrs G9mmOS she gets a little spooked by pistols -OCers / *COPS* & the midget in the mix, but maybe I can con granny into taking her for a couple of hours? Send me a PM as the details come in on time etc... I would like to help if possible.
    Well we will wait untill RockStrongo deciedes what he wants us to do.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Roger that! G9mmOS out!

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    i am available to go tomorrow also, but i will choose not to go unless one or both of you are unable to make it.

    In lapeer, they were completely confused when it came to me registering my mossberg 500 as a pistol. I put myself as the purchaser and seller. Mass confusion ensued as did a barrage of statements and questions. They ended up calling the msp firearm division who promptly set them straight. Apparently they have msp on speed dial.

    having the girls in the office in argentine call the msp while you wait should end the confusion.

  20. #20
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    babysitting all week right by argentine and 59. between G9mmOS's 2 year old and my 2 nephews that are a tornado of knocking stuff over and touching everything that should speed up any PD red tape. let me know if there's an organized meet there. couldn't you just go to livingston county? if they try to send you back to argentine tell them to call there first and inform them. APD just playing games and stalling. wasn't it there where that young boy was killed by his mother's boyfriend few months ago?

  21. #21
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    babysitting all week right by argentine and 59. between G9mmOS's 2 year old and my 2 nephews that are a tornado of knocking stuff over and touching everything that should speed up any PD red tape. let me know if there's an organized meet there. couldn't you just go to livingston county? if they try to send you back to argentine tell them to call there first and inform them. APD just playing games and stalling. wasn't it there where that young boy was killed by his mother's boyfriend few months ago?
    Dominick Calhoun. Mother has been determined competent to stand trial.
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  22. #22
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    Thanks for the tips and support everyone. I will be out of state for about a month, when I get back I will do what you suggested and maybe contact the ones who said they would like to go with me. Thanks again everybody.

  23. #23
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    its a hell of a drive from me so I cannot help you in person but i did report a crime to them via website for violating your 2nd amendment rights and michigan statute 28.422

  24. #24
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    Get a lawyer and bring an action to compell issuance of the permit

    You need to establish the legal right to obtain the michigan pistol purchase permit - do it in court and help the cause.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The way I would do it if rock will be out of town is to contact the PD, either as a MOC act or not, verify the problem, and then go complain to the city council in a large group. If the problem hasn't been fixed within, say, 5 business days, the Attorney General's office will fix it.

    Yes, suing them would be fun, but it's expensive, as opposed to the AG's office which is free and effective.

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