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Thread: Stopped in Vancouver for Open Carry

  1. #1
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    Stopped in Vancouver for Open Carry

    Got stopped on Sunday while walking with my family for Open Carry.

    Officer pulled into parking lot, called me over, hands on head, removed firearm and unloaded it. Provided licenses and CCP then a nice long wait in the sun and a wonderful lecture.

    Vancouver PD has a really bad attitude all around, this officer was no exception. Asked me to conceal it with my t-shirt (XD 9 tactical cannot be covered by a t-shirt, nice little barrel sticking out).

    I hesitated, but did cover it for the walk grudgingly. In hindsight wish I hadn't, but he already had a bad attitude. He saw me, and the gun, a few minutes prior but stated he received a call. My guess is that the hippy at the minute mart on 4th Plain and Grand Blvd. called it in, as we stopped there for some drinks.

    A bit frustrated, but not dissuaded. Not the best part of town, continuing to open carry.

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    I suppose your other choice was to argue and end up in a costly legal battle...

    I don't suppose you managed to get his name and badge number? Or at least the ID numbers on his vehicle?

    A letter of complaint to the city, county and state is in order... IMO

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    Sadly no, another poor move on my part. I'm sure I will see him again though

    Might request records from CRESA for any 911 calls placed regarding firearms that day.

    Quote Originally Posted by daddy4count View Post
    I suppose your other choice was to argue and end up in a costly legal battle...

    I don't suppose you managed to get his name and badge number? Or at least the ID numbers on his vehicle?

    A letter of complaint to the city, county and state is in order... IMO

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Exclamation Vancouver!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCastic View Post
    Sadly no, another poor move on my part. I'm sure I will see him again though

    Might request records from CRESA for any 911 calls placed regarding firearms that day.
    To quote the late volcanolgist Dave Johnston...."Vancouver, this is it!"

    Those of you that live in Vancouver need to have video/audio recorders. You need to be ready for this type of encounter and you need to start writing letters and speaking at the council meetings. Put pressure on the VPD to follow state law!

    Time to get yourselves organized and push the issue in a very professional way.
    Live Free or Die!

  5. #5
    Regular Member USMC1911's Avatar
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    Check, Check and Check ! I will Not go looking for it, but if it comes to my door, I will open it !
    I am a Sheep Dog, ... Wolves Beware !

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    The officer violated your 4th amendment rights. He illegally seized your firearm. He illegally detained you. If you were open carrying, why did you give him your CPL???? Next time you're out ( and not in a vehicle ) do NOT bring your CPL with you. Another option is to leave your CPL in your vehicle when you get out of the vehicle. NO CPL IS REQUIRED TO OPEN CARRY.

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    Go down and request any reports that day about you. When I filled out the request over here, it didn't even ask about the officers involved. I just put in my name and requested everything related to that.

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    Having been involved in numerous "detainment" threads, I've learned (slowly) to first ask questions. In this particular encounter there is insufficient information to fully sort out the legalities.

    First, we cannot know for sure whether a 911 call contained enough information to give the cop reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) to legally justify a detention. So, we need the reports and, if obtainable, especially the 911 call recording. On the bright side, a formal complaint could be written alleging an illegal seizure. Let the PD defend it by getting the daggone recordings themselves. There is no First Amendment (petition for redress of grievance) requirement that the citizen play attorney and exclude all possible legal excuses for what is to him mistreatment at the hands of government.

    Second. Questions for the OPer:

    Did the cop demand your ID document and CPL, for example in a tone that made it clear compliance might be compelled, or that he might just seize it himself out of your wallet? Or, did he request them in a everyday conversational tone that might be construed to mean you were free to refuse?

    Did you comply with the ID-CPL demand/request while politely refusing consent? Or, did you just hand them over. Need some details here.

    About the only thing that is sure so far is that a seizure occurred. Some version of, "put yer hands on yer head and c'mere!" would tend to make most people reasonably conclude they were not free to disregard the officer's inquiry and walk away. From US vs Mendenhall:

    Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-29-2010 at 11:43 PM.

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    Oh! Forgive our manners. Welcome to OCDO, SirCastic!! (open carry dot org)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Welcome to the forum, SirCastic!

    Vancouver PD needs a big slap down. ... I would love a picnic or outing.
    Ditto. If someone who lives there sets it up, I will make evry effort to attend.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajetpilot View Post
    Ditto. If someone who lives there sets it up, I will make evry effort to attend.
    I'll carpool with AJet if it doesn't fall on a hiking weekend.

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    A Couple Questions for the Original Poster

    Did the cop demand your ID document and CPL, for example in a tone that made it clear compliance might be compelled, or that he might just seize it himself out of your wallet? Or, did he request them in a everyday conversational tone that might be construed to mean you were free to refuse?

    Did you comply with the ID-CPL demand/request while politely refusing consent? Or, did you just hand them over.

    Need some details here to sort out some of the legalities.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Did the cop demand your ID document and CPL, for example in a tone that made it clear compliance might be compelled, or that he might just seize it himself out of your wallet? Or, did he request them in a everyday conversational tone that might be construed to mean you were free to refuse?

    Did you comply with the ID-CPL demand/request while politely refusing consent? Or, did you just hand them over.

    Need some details here to sort out some of the legalities.
    Being asked for ID, in any tone, is a seizure under the state constitution when one is a passenger in a vehicle, but may or may not be a seizure in other situations.

    Article I, section 7 of the Washington Constitution provides that "[no] person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law." This provision prohibits law enforcement officers from requesting identification from passengers for investigative purposes unless there is an independent basis that justifies the request. State v. Rankin, 151 Wash.2d 689, 699, 92 P.3d 202 (2004). An "articulable suspicion of criminal activity" is an "independent basis." Rankin, 151 Wash.2d at 699, 92 P.3d 202. "[A] mere request for identification from a passenger for investigatory purposes constitutes a seizure unless there is a reasonable basis for the inquiry." Rankin, 151 Wash.2d at 697, 92 P.3d 202. Generally, evidence obtained in violation of article I, section 7 must be suppressed. [4] See Rankin, 151 Wash.2d at 699, 92 P.3d 202.

    Language taken from State v. Allen 157 P.3d 893
    Last edited by olypendrew; 07-01-2010 at 09:49 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by olypendrew View Post
    SNIP Being asked for ID, in any tone, is a seizure under the state constitution...
    If I read you correctly, cops in your state cannot even consensually request ID without RAS, true?

    Go Washington!!!! Other states have passed stop-and-identify statutes. Washington has a "stop, officer-don't-try-to-identify" law. Wow! This is great!

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    New to Open Carry

    This is great. This site made my day. It is great to read about these experiences.
    If I walked in downtown Olympia, I would probably be spit on, and harrassed by the anarchists, and anti war commies.

  16. #16
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    First, welcome to OCDO...

    Quote Originally Posted by lardad View Post
    This is great. This site made my day. It is great to read about these experiences.
    If I walked in downtown Olympia, I would probably be spit on, and harrassed by the anarchists, and anti war commies.
    Second, no I have been downtown Oly and have not had any problems as most people are involved in their own little world and don't see the firearm. The others just curiously stare for a bit, determine you are not a threat and move on....
    Live Free or Die!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardad View Post
    This is great. This site made my day. It is great to read about these experiences.
    If I walked in downtown Olympia, I would probably be spit on, and harrassed by the anarchists, and anti war commies.
    I have walked downtown Oly quite a few times.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    If I read you correctly, cops in your state cannot even consensually request ID without RAS, true?

    Go Washington!!!! Other states have passed stop-and-identify statutes. Washington has a "stop, officer-don't-try-to-identify" law. Wow! This is great!
    They can "ask" you for anything; they cannot compel you to provide ID while engaging you in a friendly chat. If they demand ID it usually means that you are detained.

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the feedback everybody, and the support. I have definitely learned a lot from this thread and reading on the forums, my next encounter will be much different.

    Let me try to answer some of the questions:
    The first thing the officer did in this case was call me over, hand my dog leash to my wife, and instructed me to place my hands on my head while he removed my pistol, then asked for identification, which I surrendered and offered up my CPL, hoping it would make the encounter end sooner. Yes, stupid me.
    He then asked a few questions (Address still current, work around here, where do you work, why do you carry, etc.)
    Then he entered patrol car, ran my records, left us in the nice sunshine (a bit too warm).
    After running the records he returned my pistol and then magazine, instructed me not to load in his presence, but I could close the slide and insert the magazine which is ok since I carry Israeli Style anyways.
    Then asked, though his tone implied I had better comply, that I cover it with my shirt to not cause any more alarm and to not waste his or my time.

    Wish I remembered more.

    Apparently my 3yo son said to my wife 'I don't think daddy's coming home with us' not sure where he figured that out, I've never been in any trouble with the law, let alone with him around. Kinda sad.

    Can anybody recommend a small, quick to start voice recorder?

    Would definitely be interested in an OC picnic, especially at all of the nice parks with the No Firearms signs, Leverich anyone? Esther Short?

    Looking forward to interacting more on the forum, you guys seem like a pretty swell bunch.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    I was in that area at noon today on my way back from Portland! I was going to stop in the 7-11 for some road trip snacks (OC of course), but decided to just get on the road. Probably a good thing I didn't stop. I would've DEFINITELY hit rush hour traffic in Tacoma.

    Welcome to the group!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    They can "ask" you for anything; they cannot compel you to provide ID while engaging you in a friendly chat. If they demand ID it usually means that you are detained.
    That is what I would have said. Yet, a few posts above, Olypendrew quotes case law that would seem to indicate even a request for ID needs a RAS. Here is the quote again:

    "[A] mere request for identification from a passenger for investigatory purposes constitutes a seizure unless there is a reasonable basis for the inquiry." Rankin, 151 Wash.2d at 697, 92 P.3d 202.

    "A mere request". Although the court here is talking about a vehicle encounter, at the moment I cannot imagine the concept would not apply to, say, foot encounters, too.

    Is there other case law on this that clearly supports? Or, maybe the explanation/clarification is in the text of the opinions cited by Olypendrew?

    In the OPer's encounter, he was already seized before the ID request/demand. So, in my mind the question becomes whether the your state has a stop-and-identify statute requiring a citizen to comply with an RAS-supported demand for identity info. Although, in the present case it is a little moot because the OPer gave his info over consensually, it doesn't hurt to know the legalities for next time.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-01-2010 at 07:24 PM.

  22. #22
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    The Rankin/Allen holding appears limited to vehicle passengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That is what I would have said. Yet, a few posts above, Olypendrew quotes case law that would seem to indicate even a request for ID needs a RAS. Here is the quote again:

    "[A] mere request for identification from a passenger for investigatory purposes constitutes a seizure unless there is a reasonable basis for the inquiry." Rankin, 151 Wash.2d at 697, 92 P.3d 202.

    "A mere request". Although the court here is talking about a vehicle encounter, at the moment I cannot imagine the concept would not apply to, say, foot encounters, too.

    Is there other case law on this that clearly supports? Or, maybe the explanation/clarification is in the text of the opinions cited by Olypendrew?

    In the OPer's encounter, he was already seized before the ID request/demand. So, in my mind the question becomes whether the your state has a stop-and-identify statute requiring a citizen to comply with an RAS-supported demand for identity info. Although, in the present case it is a little moot because the OPer gave his info over consensually, it doesn't hurt to know the legalities for next time.
    For a fuller discussion of other relevant factors in determining if an encounter with someone who is not a passenger in a vehicle was consensual or not see State v. Harrington, 167 Wn.2d 656, 222 P.3d 92 (Wash. 2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    They can "ask" you for anything; they cannot compel you to provide ID while engaging you in a friendly chat. If they demand ID it usually means that you are detained.
    Don't forget Mainsail...they can't compel you to ID yourself (even VERBALLY) regardless if they have 'detained' you or not.


    Relevant portion:
    It is not clear whether, over two decades later, the Washington Supreme Court would come out differently from the U.S. Supreme Court’s Fourth and Fifth Amendment constitutional rulings in Hiibel based on “independent grounds” under the Washington Constitution. However, at this point, we think that is an academic question. That is because Washington does not have a narrowly drawn stop-and-identify statute like the Nevada statute that was before the Supreme Court in Hiibel.

    Because Washington State does not have a stop-and-identify statute like Nevada’s statute requiring identification during Terry stops, we think that Washington officers lack statutory authority to arrest for “obstructing” or for any other current Washington crime in this circumstance. Washington officers are, however, free to ask suspects in Terry stops to identify themselves or to show ID documents, and also may do so when conversing with pedestrians during non-Terry “citizen-contacts”

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCastic View Post
    ...Then asked, though his tone implied I had better comply, that I cover it with my shirt to not cause any more alarm and to not waste his or my time...
    That is different than using a threat to get you to comply. I would have responded "I will consider your suggestion. However, through my tax money, I pay you to protect and serve, NOT for advice on how to carry my side-arm.".

    It's so easy for me to figure out the perfect thing to say from the safety of my computer.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    That is different than using a threat to get you to comply. I would have responded "I will consider your suggestion. However, through my tax money, I pay you to protect and serve, NOT for advice on how to carry my side-arm.".

    It's so easy for me to figure out the perfect thing to say from the safety of my computer.
    Perhaps we could OC our laptop and get our response when stopped by LEO!

    Last edited by gogodawgs; 07-01-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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