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Thread: No firearms at a fair?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    No firearms at a fair?

    In another thread I noticed this:

    The Michigan Department of Agriculture has also promulgated a rule making it unlawful for any person, except authorized peace officers and other persons authorized by law, "to enter upon a fairgrounds and have in his possession any firearm loaded or unloaded." 1979 AC, R 291.208.


    My Googlefu is apparently weak because I can't find the actual text of R 291.208 on the web. I'm curious as to their definition of what constitutes a "fair" or if it only applies to state fairs. If anybody has a link I'm sure the assembled masses here would like to read it.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  2. #2
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I found three entries under Chapter 291, all repealed.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-chap291
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  3. #3
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    I saw the same thing, and was going to inquire, but couldnt recal where I saw it. Thanks for bringing that up.
    I would hate to get busted because I went to the traveling fair at the bowling alley parking lot.

    ETA, it was in one of the threads in which we were recently discussing the schools issue. It could have been on MGO.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    fair

    We are all " other persons authorized by law "!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Somebody buy the Gent a drink!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    We are all " other persons authorized by law "!
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
    Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap

    A standing ovation for your astute observation Sir!

  6. #6
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    what does promulgated mean?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Found it.

    DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    FINANCE AND TECHNOLOGY DIVISION

    UNLAWFUL ACTS ON STATE FAIR PROPERTIES


    (By authority conferred on the commission of agriculture by section 1 of
    Act No. 80 of the Public Acts of 1905 and sections 9, 185, and 186 of Act
    No. 380 of the Public Acts of 1965, being SS19.141, 16.109, 16.285, and
    16.286 of the Michigan Compiled Laws)


    R 291.201 Definitions.
    Rule 1. (1) "Commission" means the commission of agriculture.
    (2) "Director" means the director of the department of agriculture.
    (3) "Fairgrounds" means all lands and buildings under the jurisdiction of
    the department of agriculture--state fairs division.
    (4) "General manager" means the general manager of the Michigan state
    fair or the secretary-manager of the Upper Peninsula fair board.
    (5) "Guards" means state fair guards, police and watchmen.
    (6) "Vehicle means a device in, upon or by which any person or property is
    or may be transported or drawn, excepting devices moved by human power.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.202 Trespass and use without authorization.
    Rule 2. It is unlawful for any person to trespass upon, to use, or to
    occupy any portion of a fairgrounds or any of the buildings thereof
    without the authorization of the commission, director or general manager.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.203 Disturbances of lawful assemblies.
    Rule 3. It is unlawful for any person to make or excite any disturbance or
    contention in any building or other part of a fairgrounds where
    citizens are peaceably and lawfully assembled.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.204 Disorderly persons.
    Rule 4. It is unlawful for any person to be a disorderly person on a
    fairgrounds, including the following: any person who engages in an illegal
    occupation or business; any person who shall be drunk or intoxicated or
    enaged in any indecent or obscene conduct; any vagrant; any person found
    begging; any person who shall knowingly loiter in or about any place where an
    illegal occupation or business is being conducted; any person who shall be
    found jostling or roughly crowding people unnecessarily, shall be
    deemed a disorderly person.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.205 Resisting officers in discharge of duties.
    Rule 5. It is unlawful for any person on a fairgrounds to obstruct,
    resist, oppose, assault, beat, or wound any guard or any other person or
    persons authorized by law to maintain and preserve the peace, in their
    lawful acts, attempts, and efforts to maintain, preserve, and keep the
    peace.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.206 Sale or possession of knives with mechanical opening devices.
    Rule 6. It is unlawful for any person on a fairgrounds to sell or offer
    for sale or to have in his possession any knife having the appearance of a
    pocketknife, the blade or blades of which can be opened by the flick of a
    button, pressure on a handle, or other mechanical contrivance.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.207 Possession by minors of cutting or stabbing instruments.
    Rule 7. It shall be unlawful for any person on a fairgrounds under the
    age of 21 years to be in possession of any knife, dart, or instrument of
    any description that could be used for cutting or stabbing, provided that
    this section shall not apply to any such person under 21 years of age
    being in possession of any such knife when it is used or carried in good
    faith as a tool of honest work, trade, business, sport, or recreation or
    when used or carried in good faith as equipment related to and required
    for any legitimate sport, recreation or youth character building program
    (such as boy scouts or girl scouts) when actively engaged therein or
    actively engaged in going to or returning from such honest work, trade,
    business, sport, recreation, or youth character building program.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.208 Possession of firearms or other dangerous weapons.
    Rule 8. It is unlawful for any person, except authorized peace officers
    and other persons authorized by law, to enter upon a fairgrounds and have in
    his possession any firearm, loaded or unloaded, or any other dangerous
    weapon, concealed or otherwise. A violation of this rule may result in the
    immediate confiscation of such firearm or other dangerous weapon by the
    Michigan state police, a state fair guard, or other authorized officer.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.209 Injury or destruction of property.
    Rule 9. It is unlawful for any person to willfully injure or destroy any
    public property, real or personal, or personal property of any exhibitor,
    concessionaire, lessee, patron, or visitor on the fairgrounds.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.210 Control of vehicles.
    Rule 10. It is unlawful for any person to drive, tow, or place any
    vehicle on a fairgrounds, or to park, load, or unload the same, except as
    authorized by the commission, director or the general manager. The maximum
    speed for any vehicle on the fairgrounds shall be no greater than that
    which is safe under the existing conditions, but in any event shall be no
    more than 25 miles per hour.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.211 Littering.
    Rule 11. It is unlawful for any person knowingly, without the consent of
    the commission, director or the general manager, to dump, deposit, place,
    throw, or leave, or cause or permit the dumping, depositing, placing,
    throwing, or leaving of litter on a fairgrounds. "Litter" means all
    rubbish, refuse, waste material, garbage, offal, paper, glass, cans,
    bottles, trash, debris, or other foreign substances of every kind and
    description.

    History: 1979 AC.


    R 291.220 Penalty.
    Rule 20. Any person who openly and willfully refuses to conform to any of
    these rules, under the provisions of section 2 of Act No. 80 of the
    Public Acts of 1905, being S19.142 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, shall be
    deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof may be fined
    not more than $50.00 or by imprisonment in the county jail of the county
    where such offense is committed for a period of not less than 10 days nor
    more than 60 days, or both such fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of
    the court. The general manager, or the officer in charge of the
    Michigan state police state fair unit or of the Detroit police, or of the
    guards, may order the immediate expulsion from a fairgrounds of any person
    who may refuse to conform to these rules without refund of any funds paid to
    the commission and without liability for damages on the part of the state
    of Michigan, its agents, officers, and employees, the commission or the
    Michigan state police, Detroit police, the guards or police officers
    involved.

    History: 1979 AC.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    what does promulgated mean?
    To make known public.
    To put into effect as a regulation.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Taurus, I bow to your superior Googlefu.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  12. #12
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    many fairgrounds are owned by private boards and are not covered under preemption, so they could ask you to leave.

    Genesee County fairgrounds are one exception, as they are county property.

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    FWIW, the Administrative rule you're referring to only applies to the State Fair.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    FWIW, the Administrative rule you're referring to only applies to the State Fair.
    And that has been shut down... AFAIK
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    this rule was put in to place in 1979, if i am reading this thing right. preemption of 1990 wiped the part of not carrying a firearm at the state fair off the slate

  16. #16
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khicks View Post
    this rule was put in to place in 1979, if i am reading this thing right. preemption of 1990 wiped the part of not carrying a firearm at the state fair off the slate
    IF this is a state agency which I believe it is then it is not affected by preemption as preemption reserves these types of rules and laws to the state.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khicks View Post
    this rule was put in to place in 1979, if i am reading this thing right. preemption of 1990 wiped the part of not carrying a firearm at the state fair off the slate
    IMHO, preemption would not "wipe this out", as this rule is made by The Michigan Department of Agriculture, which is "state level".

    The Concealed Pistol Licensing Act (Act), 1927 PA 372, as amended, MCL 28.421 et seq, regulates the possession and carrying of concealed pistols. The Act prohibits persons from carrying a concealed pistol unless they have been licensed in accordance with the provisions of the Act. Section 5c(2), MCL 28.425c(2), provides that licensees may carry a concealed pistol "anywhere in this state," subject to certain exceptions found in section 5o and "except as otherwise provided by law."

    As written, I believe that Zig is correct, the rules ONLY apply to The State Fair.

    However, AG Cox SEEMINGLY argued, in Opinion 7123, that it would be against the law to carry a pistol on fairgrounds... not just state fairgrounds, all fairgrounds. The pertinent part states:
    An examination of the Michigan laws dealing with the possession of firearms discloses several additional instances where the prohibition of firearms is "otherwise provided by law." Among these is 2001 PA 225, MCL 259.80f, effective April 1, 2002, which prohibits the possession of a firearm in the "sterile" (i.e., secure) area of a commercial airport. In addition, the Michigan Supreme Court, in Administrative Order 2001-3, 464 Mich 1xxv, has, with certain exceptions, prohibited the possession of a weapon in any courtroom or facility used for official business of the court. A person violating the order may be held in contempt of court. The Michigan Department of Agriculture has also promulgated a rule making it unlawful for any person, except authorized peace officers and other persons authorized by law, "to enter upon a fairgrounds and have in his possession any firearm loaded or unloaded." 1979 AC, R 291.208.

    The argument of CPL holders being "authorized by law" would be valid, IMHO, however the AG Opinion seemingly throws that argument in doubt, too. Perhaps Mr. Cox has become more "Pro 2A" since this time, but his opinion seems to throw doubt on a CPL holder's ability to carry on a fairground.

    So, although I think that it only applies to the state fairgrounds, AG Cox appears to believe it covers all fairgrounds.


    EDIT: It appears that, since "fairgrounds" is defined as "all lands and buildings under the jurisdiction of
    the department of agriculture--state fairs division" the power, and therefore, the rules of the Commission DO NOT APPLY to other fairgrounds, other than the state fair... so I believe even more so than I originally posted that Zig is correct:


    MICHIGAN EXPOSITION AND FAIRGROUNDS AUTHORITY ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 361 of 1978


    285.163 Fairs and uses of fairgrounds to which act inapplicable.
    Sec. 3.

    (1) This act does not apply to the Upper Peninsula state fair conducted under 1927 PA 89, MCL 285.141 to 285.145.

    (2) This act does not apply to a fair conducted by a county of this state, or to a fair conducted under the official authorization of the county board of commissioners or other duly constituted county regional authority.

    (3) This act shall not apply to uses of fairgrounds permitted under 1941 PA 80, MCL 285.151.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-01-2010 at 01:02 PM.
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