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Thread: OC getting hammered on another pro-2A site

  1. #1
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    OC getting hammered on another pro-2A site

    Hey everyone, I am new to being active on forums and am admittedly not as articulate as some on these forums. I have read them for many years and they have, in fact, convinced me to be more active and to not be afraid to carry openly. However, I have been engaged in a forum that is more rooted in concealed carry and every time I defend OC, I get smashed on all sides by other pro-2A'ers who feel OC is dangerous.. Their general argument is that my gun will be taken from me, I offend everyone around, and that it doesn't deter BG's.

    My question is... Any advise as to how I can help other pro 2A'ers?? or at least has anyone else dealt with this before???

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kootsoup View Post
    Hey everyone, I am new to being active on forums and am admittedly not as articulate as some on these forums. I have read them for many years and they have, in fact, convinced me to be more active and to not be afraid to carry openly. However, I have been engaged in a forum that is more rooted in concealed carry and every time I defend OC, I get smashed on all sides by other pro-2A'ers who feel OC is dangerous.. Their general argument is that my gun will be taken from me, I offend everyone around, and that it doesn't deter BG's.

    My question is... Any advise as to how I can help other pro 2A'ers?? or at least has anyone else dealt with this before???

    Thanks
    I hear it a lot. I generally ask the person to return with a citation of one place where it's actually happened, so we can discuss it. No one ever has.

    Not that they couldn't; I'm sure it's happened, but it certainly is very, very rare.

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    Regular Member bom1911's Avatar
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    What forum?

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    Advice

    Be rational, very rational. Let them be emotional. Make your points. When they get repetitive, and they will, exit the discussion, leaving them the last word. You will almost surely not convince the vocal folks who are arguing with you. However, your goal should be convincing the passive reader who will almost never reply. If you remain rational and let the loyal opposition go nuts, you will be persuasive to that silent majority.

    Oh, and, ask that question that Tess suggested.

    $0.02 worth of advice.

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    If you look around you'll find that many, if not most pro gun web sites do not like open carry. Most with permits think they are part of a special club. If everyone is allowed to carry w/o a permit there is no longer anything special about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Be rational, very rational. Let them be emotional. Make your points. When they get repetitive, and they will, exit the discussion, leaving them the last word. You will almost surely not convince the vocal folks who are arguing with you. However, your goal should be convincing the passive reader who will almost never reply. If you remain rational and let the loyal opposition go nuts, you will be persuasive to that silent majority.

    Oh, and, ask that question that Tess suggested.

    $0.02 worth of advice.
    What he said. That is exactly what happened with me. I was passively lurking on a CC forum, probably no more than a dozen posts, and started following a oc vs cc thread. What the OC guy said was logical and made sense. It got me to thinking, and once somebody starts thinking, you're halfway to swinging them around.

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    I've also noticed that people who CC feel the need to defend it to their 'death,' if you know what I mean. They paid good money to take a course, more money to get a piece of (sometimes laminated) paper, got a nice inside the waist band holster, got a smaller gun then what they'd normally go with, and (in some cases) bought an entirely new wardrobe to suite their carry style. Cost of all that? A hell of a lot.

    They want to defend it because they've invested so much time and money into it, it's only natural. Some of them may even be CCW instructors, and that is their income - why would they tout off that OC is as good as CC when they need people to pay them for a class? It's all about money, whether it be spent or earned.

    As Tess stated, ask for proof of someone getting robbed while OC'ing, and if they keep ignoring it, call them out on it (just don't be a dick). Be rational, and type to where you won't have to go back and edit what you said.
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    Cash reward for documented simple snatch from OC LAC???????????????????

    Quote Originally Posted by kootsoup View Post
    Their general argument is that my gun will be taken from me,Thanks
    There has been a standing offer of a cash reward for a documented simple snatch from an openly carrying legally armed citizen here on OCDO.

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    Good Advice

    Thanks! I was so amazed at how closed they were to OC.. Now that I think about it, I probably fed the "troll" a little.. I guess forum posting has a learning curve like anything else.

    by the way, the forum is "Defensive Carry"

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by kootsoup View Post
    Thanks! I was so amazed at how closed they were to OC.. Now that I think about it, I probably fed the "troll" a little.. I guess forum posting has a learning curve like anything else.

    by the way, the forum is "Defensive Carry"
    They don't like open carry over there. I was banned for telling my open carry story on that web site.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    They don't like open carry over there. I was banned for telling my open carry story on that web site.
    have posted on both sides on that site gotten into long discussions never had a problem.
    Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you. "Henry Kissinger" A wise man once told me to strive to own one of every type and caliber, and I'm doing my best to comply. JW

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Ask them to supply you with a single, proven incident of a successful "gun grab" of a lawful OCer.

    That usually shuts them up...

    Because from our research, in the last 20 years, there has been ONE time in the US where this happened, and it was last month in Milwaukee WI...

    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html


    Here is the thread from this forum about this incident:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...obbed+Gunpoint

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Ask them to supply you with a single, proven incident of a successful "gun grab" of a lawful OCer.

    That usually shuts them up...

    Because from our research, in the last 20 years, there has been ONE time in the US where this happened, and it was last month in Milwaukee WI...

    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html


    Here is the thread from this forum about this incident:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...obbed+Gunpoint
    I believe that was an armed robbery, not a gun-grab. Even a CCer can be robbed of his gun if a robber spots the gun printing or bulging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I believe that was an armed robbery, not a gun-grab. Even a CCer can be robbed of his gun if a robber spots the gun printing or bulging.
    I agree--not a gun-grab. And, the concern is that, it being visible and accessible, the gun makes for a tempting prize for an opportunist.

    I'd like to see stats on CCers being robbed and losing their guns. I'd be willing to bet that that happens a lot more than OCers being robbed and losing their guns.

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    Suggested Tactic

    What I suggest below has worked very well during in-person discussion. I imagine it will work just as well on a forum, taking Eye95's point into account.

    I usually tell a questioner my first-hand experience. In over three years of regular OCing, I have had maybe four negative comments from strangers in public. But, I have literally received dozens of positive comments from strangers in public. And one of the negative commenters (anti-gun) changed their mind about the RKBA after I spoke to them briefly!

    One young woman, after a brief discussion about self-defense, decided to download the CCW application after work that very afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    I've also noticed that people who CC feel the need to defend it to their 'death,' if you know what I mean. They paid good money to take a course, more money to get a piece of (sometimes laminated) paper, got a nice inside the waist band holster, got a smaller gun then what they'd normally go with, and (in some cases) bought an entirely new wardrobe to suite their carry style. Cost of all that? A hell of a lot.

    They want to defend it because they've invested so much time and money into it, it's only natural. Some of them may even be CCW instructors, and that is their income - why would they tout off that OC is as good as CC when they need people to pay them for a class? It's all about money, whether it be spent or earned.
    Anytime you paint a large and diverse group of people with the same broad brush, you're almost always guaranteed to be wrong. Which you are. Your statement above is proof of that.

    I am a CWP holder. Two of them in fact. This allows me to CC in 30 some states, including my home state that isn't enlightened enough to allow open carry. Even if South Carolina was an open carry state, I'd still have a CWP for those times when concealing may work out better for me or if I travel to a non-OC state.

    I am a strong proponent of OC and do so whenever I can. I am also a strong proponent of CC for those who can't or choose not to OC. I do not like the idea of being forced to ask for permission to exercise my 2A right, but right now it's my only lawful option. And I do not now nor have I ever felt the need to defend it to my death, except to people who think any form of carry should be outlawed.

    Your statement, and attitude, sound a lot like someone from the anti-gun and anti-freedom side. After all, everyone who carries a gun is only looking for a reason to shoot someone else. Blood will run in the streets.

    Sounds kinda stupid, doesn't it.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    I wrote the following articles as a direct response to those types of questions. Feel free to direct CC only proponents to them.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...-2nd-Amendment

    http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...hide-apple-pie

    http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...-of-open-carry



    Quote Originally Posted by kootsoup View Post
    Hey everyone, I am new to being active on forums and am admittedly not as articulate as some on these forums. I have read them for many years and they have, in fact, convinced me to be more active and to not be afraid to carry openly. However, I have been engaged in a forum that is more rooted in concealed carry and every time I defend OC, I get smashed on all sides by other pro-2A'ers who feel OC is dangerous.. Their general argument is that my gun will be taken from me, I offend everyone around, and that it doesn't deter BG's.

    My question is... Any advise as to how I can help other pro 2A'ers?? or at least has anyone else dealt with this before???

    Thanks

  18. #18
    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp-hobo View Post
    Anytime you paint a large and diverse group of people with the same broad brush, you're almost always guaranteed to be wrong. Which you are. Your statement above is proof of that.
    I was just expressing how I felt, and what I've observed. What I said was not a scientific evaluation. It's a conclusion I've come to on my own based on what I know. The sample size is small, so the results are skewed heavily.

    I am a CWP holder. Two of them in fact. This allows me to CC in 30 some states, including my home state that isn't enlightened enough to allow open carry. Even if South Carolina was an open carry state, I'd still have a CWP for those times when concealing may work out better for me or if I travel to a non-OC state.

    I am a strong proponent of OC and do so whenever I can. I am also a strong proponent of CC for those who can't or choose not to OC. I do not like the idea of being forced to ask for permission to exercise my 2A right, but right now it's my only lawful option. And I do not now nor have I ever felt the need to defend it to my death, except to people who think any form of carry should be outlawed.
    I feel the same way as you do. I OC for various reasons, one of them being its kind of hard to conceal a 1911.

    Your statement, and attitude, sound a lot like someone from the anti-gun and anti-freedom side. After all, everyone who carries a gun is only looking for a reason to shoot someone else. Blood will run in the streets.
    I'm sorry, but when/where did I say anything like this? I expressed how I felt, what I've noticed, and how it logically made sense.

    -Does it cost money to take a CCW course? Yes
    -Does it cost money to get a CCW permit? Yes
    -Does it cost money to get an IWB holster? Yes, even though its approximately the same as a regular holster, but it still costs money
    -Does it cost money to get a smaller gun? Varies, depending on what pistol the owner already has. In my situation, I would have to get a smaller pistol, as a 1911, even on my size frame, is hard to conceal without imprinting (even though its legal where I live, but it defeats the purpose of CC).
    -Buy an entirely new wardrobe? In some cases, yes. In mine, definately. Most of my clothes have been sized to fit without an IWB holster, which would increase my waist size approximately 1-2 inches. Therefore, I would need a new wardrobe.

    I have made the following deductions based on my experiences, and what I can logically deduce from them.

    Sounds kinda stupid, doesn't it.
    Depending on your point of view, yes. You think I'm stupid, I think your stupid . Again, this is a pure point of view perspective.

    I take personal offense on the fact that you are calling me anti-gun and anti-freedom. I haven't been a resident of these forums for very long, but name one of my other ~130 posts where I explicitly said anything of that nature (apart from this one where I apparently am). I merely offered some advice, and told the OP to look at it from a financial point of view - people who spend a lot of money on something do tend to defend what they've invested in (case and point your post). Does that mean it's bad? Hell no. I've put a lot of money into my RC airplanes, and if someone bad mouths how I designed/built them, then I'll give them a mouthful as well. Do I fault you for defending your position? Fcuk no! We are passionate about guns, its why we are on a gun discussion forum pertaining to open carry. We will defend our stance in a heartbeat, as it should be.

    As for my
    defend it to their 'death,' if you know what I mean
    I merely say that as a form of expression, nothing more. Just means that people are passionate about something, is all.
    Last edited by elixin77; 06-30-2010 at 10:45 AM.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I hear it a lot. I generally ask the person to return with a citation of one place where it's actually happened, so we can discuss it. No one ever has.

    Not that they couldn't; I'm sure it's happened, but it certainly is very, very rare.
    It happened in Milwaukee, WI recently.

    Anyhow, tell the anti-OC'ers that some states (IL and WI) do not allow CC and WI only allows OC, so, we have no choice. We in WI are working on what we call 'constitutional carry' which would be permit-less carry by whatever means the carrier wishes. This would allow us to OC when we are shirtless (especially women!!!) and CC when in the middle of winter we have heavy coats on.

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    Still hasn't been cited, a simple snatch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I hear it a lot. I generally ask the person to return with a citation of one place where it's actually happened, so we can discuss it. No one ever has.
    Still hasn't. At gun point presidents are assassinated so anything can happen, EXCEPT A SIMPLE SNATCH FROM A LEGALLY ARMED OPEN CARRYING CITIZEN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    We in WI are working on what we call 'constitutional carry' which would be permit-less carry by whatever means the carrier wishes.
    Some of US. Others, many, NRA 'members', see permitted carry as reasonable and acceptable gun control from the right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    It happened in Milwaukee, WI recently.

    Anyhow, tell the anti-OC'ers that some states (IL and WI) do not allow CC and WI only allows OC, so, we have no choice. We in WI are working on what we call 'constitutional carry' which would be permit-less carry by whatever means the carrier wishes. This would allow us to OC when we are shirtless (especially women!!!) and CC when in the middle of winter we have heavy coats on.
    That was a robbery at gunpoint. I still don't know of a single documented case of a gun-grab, or the opportunistic snatch of an unconcealed weapon.

    At gunpoint, CC weapons can be taken too. The unsupported argument against OC is that someone will simply take the gun out of your holster. That is what has not happened yet--as far as anyone here knows. (And, I can't imagine we wouldn't hear about it.)

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    The way I see it.. OC and CC share the same side of the carry coin. Either you carry or you don't carry.

    I OCed first, before getting my CHP, and fully support dismantling my State's CHP requirements in favor for a free and more liberating set of laws. Would that really chap my sack if concealed carry became suddenly Free after I paid a grand on my setup? No. I did what I had to do and it wasn't pretty (financially). I understand having No permit requirement for concealed carry is the more American way to roll.

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    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    Depending on your point of view, yes. You think I'm stupid, I think your stupid . Again, this is a pure point of view perspective.

    I take personal offense on the fact that you are calling me anti-gun and anti-freedom.
    Please point out to me where I called you stupid. You can't because I didn't. I called you wrong, which oddly enough has an entirely different meaning than stupid.

    I compared your "statement and attitude" to an anti-gun/anti-freedom argument and implied that they both sounded stupid.

    While you're at it, point out to me where I called you anti-gun or anti-freedom. Once again it didn't happen, so you can't.

    If you want to maintain any credibility, you'll need to stick to the facts and not use emotional arguments.

    You were the first one to call a name. That is a documented fact. Calling names is the sign of someone who has run out logic and facts to support their viewpoint. Good job. You should be very proud of yourself.

    This will be my last post on this subject. Have a nice day.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    The facts are that many firearms forums condone concealed carry and condemn open carry. I haven't seen a moderator on this forum ban anyone for asking about concealed carry or telling a story about concealed carry...
    Many people who conceal carry oppose open carry because they are scared of people who haven't gone through background checks. Most who open carry can careless if people conceal.

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