Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: No CPL: Adjoining parking lots with business that has Liquor License.

  1. #1
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932

    No CPL: Adjoining parking lots with business that has Liquor License.

    I didn't want to derail the experiences thread any more than I already had.

    If I do not have my CPL and go to an OC friendly store at a shopping center, but a few hundred feet away in the same shopping center is another business with a liquor license, would I technically be breaking the law when in the parking lot?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  2. #2
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,756
    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    I didn't want to derail the experiences thread any more than I already had.

    If I do not have my CPL and go to an OC friendly store at a shopping center, but a few hundred feet away in the same shopping center is another business with a liquor license, would I technically be breaking the law when in the parking lot?
    I have no legal basis to back this up so it is merely my gut reaction opinion.......

    I suspect that it would take a court case to settle that question.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  3. #3
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SE, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,336
    Deleted.
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 07-01-2010 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Edited to remove wrong reference to CPL Legal Language

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).


    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o
    Wrong statute as he has NO cpl.

    I think you are fine as long as you stay far away from the place with the liquor license. I would be interested to know who owns the parking lot however? If the store in question does not then likely a certain number of spaces go with the lease... but I doubt the whole parking lot does.

    Research is in order to be sure.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  5. #5
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    I get my CPL next Friday if all goes well, so it is more just for my own (and the communities) knowledge at this point.

    Red square = Save-A-Lot

    Red Ellipse = Kroger

    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    Can you do a plat search and see who owns what? Your county should have it on their website and you can look and see who owns what parcels. Then if you can figure a way into save a lots parking lot that does not cross the licensed parcels...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SE, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,336
    There is no reference to Parking Areas being OK to non-cpl holders in the applicable law: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d

    However a judge MAY RULE that, since the Parking Areas were clearly called-out in the CPL PFZs as not being being part of the PFZ, Parking Areas would not be part of the "PFZs" listed in 750.234d. Although, this makes way too much sense and MAY NOT be ruled that way.

    CPL PFZs: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

    IANAL!

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    The only PFZ parking lot exception that I know of applies to CPL holders who are CC on a school parking lot. Non CPL holders defer to 234d, and there is no parking lot exemption there, the wording is premises, which IMO is everywhere except the sidewalk, if any.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    234d does allow for carry with permission however.

    On that note, what do you guys think about this. It would likely be easier to get permission to keep the gun in the car, (if you ask they probably wont let you OC), but I think that this would not cover you under the transport law.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I would say to park at the clothing store.

  11. #11
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,383
    I'm not a lawyer but I don't think it should count againt you. Thank of it from this side of the coin...
    You cannot drink in a bar parking lot (unless it is fenced off, and limited), you cannot buy beer in a store parking lot (even when they have "parking lot sales"). So the parking lot is not zoned for liquor so I don't see it being a PFZ.
    just my $0.02
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Without a CPL, it is. IMO, if the buisiness has a liquor license, then the parking lot, being part of the premises they own/rent/lease then 234d applies.

    Park next door, thats what I do.



    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.


    Sec. 234d.


    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.


    Sec. 234d.


    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:


    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


    Since "premises" isn't defined in the statute or referenced to another MCL where it is defined a dictionary definition would be used.

    Dictionary.com defines it as:
    a. a tract of land including its buildings.
    b. a building together with its grounds or other appurtenances.
    Business Dictionary.com:
    2. A building or facility, including the fenced or walled (or demarcated or segregated) space surrounding it.
    Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:
    a : a tract of land with the buildings thereon b : a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (as grounds)


    So unfortunately eastmyers it looks like it includes all grounds belonging to the licensed business including the parking lots.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  14. #14
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post



    So unfortunately eastmyers it looks like it includes all grounds belonging to the licensed business including the parking lots.

    Bronson
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...n_284262_7.pdf
    It says CPL holders shall not carry in these places (concealed at least), doesn't say non-CPL holders can't carry in the parking lots, also its almost four am.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  15. #15
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...n_284262_7.pdf
    It says CPL holders shall not carry in these places (concealed at least), doesn't say non-CPL holders can't carry in the parking lots, also its almost four am.
    I didn't even look at it. C'mon, you know better than to post somebody else's interpretation of the law instead of the law itself.

    750.234d clearly states that it is unlawful to possess a firearm on the PREMISES of the listed places and gives an exemption to those licensed to carry a concealed pistol. No license = no exemption which means that without a license to conceal you cannot carry anywhere on the property that is owned/leased by any of the entities listed in .234d, including a business licensed to sell alcohol.

    ETA: Ok, I've looked at it and it has nothing to do with possession of a firearm without a CPL so it isn't germane to this discussion.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 07-02-2010 at 04:09 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  16. #16
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Last edited by fozzy71; 07-02-2010 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Could someone please try to make our gun laws a little more confusing?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  17. #17
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Just so I am clear on something, now that I have my CPL: It is not illegal for me to buy beer at kroger or stop in a party store for a liquor bottle, is it? I can possess it and transport it but I can not be drunk, right?

    This next one will likely never happen, but I am curious: If I were to be drunk, riding in a car as a passenger, the gun should be unloaded/cased/locked, in the trunk of the vehicle?
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Correct on both

  19. #19
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Apparently I have learned some things in my time here.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •