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Thread: Weapons in reasturants the serve alcohol. Law (included) interpretation.

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    Weapons in reasturants the serve alcohol. Law (included) interpretation.

    Hey guys and gals I'm new here will be getting my first pistol (Taurus pt 1911 ss) in two weeks and i plan to start open carrying. I'm not new to guns or their effects been hunting for 10 yrs. But back to subject at hand I want to see if somebody can interpret these laws from Louisianacarry.org for

    ]95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. Any person entering an alcoholic beverage outlet as defined herein, by the fact of such entering, shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

    B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" licensed to sell firearms or containing an indoor shooting gallery shall be exempt from the provisions of this Section in those areas designated for the sale of firearms or the shooting gallery.

    D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

    E. The owner of the alcoholic beverage outlet shall post a sign, at or near the entrance, that states that by the fact of entering these premises a person shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

    Added by Acts 1983, No. 524, 1.

    .................................................. .................................................. .............................................
    95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

    B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

    D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    Acts 1985, No. 765, 1.


    Now 95.5 says that you cannot carry into these places. But 95.4 says about the not over half of sales is alcohol. Does 95.4 just mean that LEO cannot search you in said places?

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    Quote Originally Posted by I OC nothingwronghere View Post
    Hey guys and gals I'm new here will be getting my first pistol (Taurus pt 1911 ss) in two weeks and i plan to start open carrying. I'm not new to guns or their effects been hunting for 10 yrs. But back to subject at hand I want to see if somebody can interpret these laws from Louisianacarry.org for

    ]95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. Any person entering an alcoholic beverage outlet as defined herein, by the fact of such entering, shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

    B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" licensed to sell firearms or containing an indoor shooting gallery shall be exempt from the provisions of this Section in those areas designated for the sale of firearms or the shooting gallery.

    D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

    E. The owner of the alcoholic beverage outlet shall post a sign, at or near the entrance, that states that by the fact of entering these premises a person shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

    Added by Acts 1983, No. 524, 1.

    .................................................. .................................................. .............................................
    95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

    A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

    B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

    C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

    D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    Acts 1985, No. 765, 1.


    Now 95.5 says that you cannot carry into these places. But 95.4 says about the not over half of sales is alcohol. Does 95.4 just mean that LEO cannot search you in said places?
    Part D of 95.4 is a bone of contention. It's something that we should push to have added to 95.5 seeing as the rest of the language in both ordinances is nearly the same. It would certainly clear up the issue of "is it OK to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol?". As it stands now, CC is generally, even by most LEO, considered to be OK in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as one stays out of the bar area. If no one sees it, it's not a problem to anyone right? OC on the other hand, is not considered legal where alcohol is served, even if just in a restaurant. Bars and the bar area of a restaurant have a different class of license than just a restaurant (or portion of) that serves alcohol to diners, but it doesn't matter. In a nutshell, if the restaurant serves alcohol, CC ok, OC not ok. Bars, that is to say, a place devoted almost exclusively to sales of alcohol, is off limits to either.

    Yes, part D of 95.4 says that LEO are not allowed to arbitrarily search you for a firearm if you are in a restaurant. Course, if you are OCing they don't really have to search you to find it do they? Then your popped for 95.5 if the place serves alcohol to diners.

    This is not to say that people haven't OC'd in restaurants that serve alcohol. I have and so have many others, but ya takes your chances if ya do.
    Last edited by Revolver_Ocelot; 07-02-2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason: correction

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolver_Ocelot View Post
    As it stands now, CC is generally, even by most LEO, considered to be OK in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as one stays out of the bar area.
    Not exactly. The test is the type of license the place has. Class A General license = no CC. Class A Restaurant license = CC OK. One good indicator, but not infallible test, is whether any minors are present or whether smoking is legal. You can smoke in and minors are not allowed in a Class A General establishment.

    To be certain, you can go to the state ABO website and check what type of license an establishment has.

    OC is illegal if they serve alcohol for consumption on premises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DZelenka View Post
    Not exactly. The test is the type of license the place has. Class A General license = no CC. Class A Restaurant license = CC OK. One good indicator, but not infallible test, is whether any minors are present or whether smoking is legal. You can smoke in and minors are not allowed in a Class A General establishment.

    To be certain, you can go to the state ABO website and check what type of license an establishment has.

    OC is illegal if they serve alcohol for consumption on premises.
    "Not exactly"? You disagree yet say the same thing in different words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolver_Ocelot View Post
    "Not exactly"? You disagree yet say the same thing in different words.
    No, I didn't say the same thing using different words. You made the following statement which is not correct: "As it stands now, CC is generally, even by most LEO, considered to be OK in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as one stays out of the bar area." Take Chili's for an example, it has both a bar area and a restaurant area. A CHP holder can carry in both. There is only one liquor license for the premises and it happens to be a Class A Restaurant permit. I did a fairly quick review of all of the Class A permits in St. Tammany. No establishment that I noticed had both types of permit. So, you can sit in either the bar area or the restaurant area if the place serving alcohol has a Class A Restaurant permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DZelenka View Post
    No, I didn't say the same thing using different words. You made the following statement which is not correct: "As it stands now, CC is generally, even by most LEO, considered to be OK in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as one stays out of the bar area." Take Chili's for an example, it has both a bar area and a restaurant area. A CHP holder can carry in both. There is only one liquor license for the premises and it happens to be a Class A Restaurant permit. I did a fairly quick review of all of the Class A permits in St. Tammany. No establishment that I noticed had both types of permit. So, you can sit in either the bar area or the restaurant area if the place serving alcohol has a Class A Restaurant permit.
    Staying out of the bar area? Is that the part of my statement your objecting to? In future, please be specific as to what part of someones statement you disagree with (if indeed it's but a part and not the whole). It saves confusion.

    Ok, let me retrack my thought then. There are several postings on this subject here in the boards and it's been reported by folks who have spoken with LSP on the subject. They (LSP) have responded in the past that CC will probably not cause you any problems in a restaurant that serves alcohol provided one stays out of the bar. You checked on restaurants in St Tammany and are satisfied there are no class A general permits that would be a hindrance to carry in a bar area of a restaurant. Fine. I'll just avoid the bar at Chilli's since I'm not going to bother asking the bartender what class of permit he has there. Since I don't drink when I carry, I don't have any reason to sit in the bar area anyway. I haven't had any problems carrying either way in any restaurant so far, but, as in any subject on the forums here, YMMV.

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    Last week I talked to the man in charge at the LA DPS Concealed Handgun Permit Unit. WE have talked a few times on different subjects but twice on this subject. This is what I was told. You can disagree with what I put here but this is what the DPS is stating.

    They know the laws are conflicting. He also stated that some LEO's would not charge someone who was carrying in a restaurant that did serve alcohol. But he also said there were some who would. He also stated that they had to defer to 95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet for the law. To the LA DPS carry in a place that serves alcohol is illegal.

    They also know the laws are conflicting. They have had meetings about it and the only way to really fix it is to change the law. That is the direction they are trying to go but you know how politicians are.

    So until there laws are made clearer on this subject Handgunlaw.us recommends you not carry in any establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises in LA. Until they change the law or there is a court case concerning this subject you are placing yourself in jeopardy by carrying in any place that serves alcohol.

    So do be careful as it could cost you a lot of money and even your permit to carry and by one reading of the law you did nothing wrong but by another law you did. The politicians made this mess they must clean it up.

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    LSA met with LSP's handgun permit department. including LSP's legal counsel, months ago on these issues and all agreed it was best to leave restaurant carry alone and that current law was sufficient for those who could read. However, If people continue to create the perception of a problem, LSP may feel compelled to act. The legislative process is such that you may get a definitive statement that changes the law to make it more restrictive like 14:95.5. Give it a rest. If you have a permit, you are safe to depend on the limitation set forth in 40:1379.3 i.e. you cannot go into an establishment that has a Class A General permit. Other alcohol beverage outlets are OK. 14:95.5 does not apply to CHP holders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DZelenka View Post
    LSA met with LSP's handgun permit department. including LSP's legal counsel, months ago on these issues and all agreed it was best to leave restaurant carry alone and that current law was sufficient for those who could read. However, If people continue to create the perception of a problem, LSP may feel compelled to act. The legislative process is such that you may get a definitive statement that changes the law to make it more restrictive like 14:95.5. Give it a rest. If you have a permit, you are safe to depend on the limitation set forth in 40:1379.3 i.e. you cannot go into an establishment that has a Class A General permit. Other alcohol beverage outlets are OK. 14:95.5 does not apply to CHP holders.
    Just what "does compelled to act" mean? You must be someone real important?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul E. Blouin View Post
    Just what "does compelled to act" mean?
    They may seek clarification by the legislature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DZelenka View Post
    They may seek clarification by the legislature.
    Let'em seek clarification..........the more people see this isn't going away and a lot more are willing to ask questions, the more, at least how I think, we are going to turn the current attitude around about open carrying. Maybe some of you see it different and I can respect that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul E. Blouin View Post
    Let'em seek clarification..........the more people see this isn't going away and a lot more are willing to ask questions, the more, at least how I think, we are going to turn the current attitude around about open carrying. Maybe some of you see it different and I can respect that.
    The issue we are discussing has nothing to do with OC. Actually, I don't understand the relevance of what you wrote above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul E. Blouin View Post
    Let'em seek clarification..........the more people see this isn't going away and a lot more are willing to ask questions, the more, at least how I think, we are going to turn the current attitude around about open carrying. Maybe some of you see it different and I can respect that.
    I agree clarification is EXACTLY what a lot of us would like to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    I agree clarification is EXACTLY what a lot of us would like to see.
    What is not clear?

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    I am going to elaborate a bit on why the current law is actually quite clear. A CHP holder can carry in a place that serves alcohol unless it has a Class A General permit. To the extent that RS 14:95, 95.1, 95.2, etc. are in conflict with the concealed carry law, they don't apply to CHP holders. If that were not the case, then a permit holder could be arrested for violating 14:95 which would be ridiculous. Think about it - RS 14:95 prohibits the "intentional concealment of any firearm", but RS 40:1379.3 says a permit holder can carry concealed. Clearly, one statute overrides the other. The reason is that there are rules of statutory interpretation (a hierarchy so to speak). When there is conflicting legislation, the later overrides the earlier (the LA Civil Code says that it is a tacit repeal of the earlier law by the legislature.). Also, more specific legislation overrides general. There is more, but I assume you get the drift.

    When RS 1379.3 allowed permit holders to carry concealed subject to certain specifically excluded places, that was the last statement of the legislature. Any prior inconsistent laws do not apply. The only excluded alcohol beverage outlet is one that has a Class A General permit. If the ABO has a Class A Restaurant permit, which most restaurants do, a CHP holder can carry therein.

    Legislative clarification is unnecessary. To seek it would only provide politicians with the opportunity to screw things up.

    Dan

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    RS 26:71.1

    71.1. Class A permit; definitions

    The commissioner shall issue the following four types of Class A retail liquor permits:

    (1) Class A-General:

    (a) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to a retail outlet where beverage alcohol is sold on the premises for consumption on the premises by paying customers. Such an establishment must be equipped with a permanent wet bar equipped with a non-movable sink and a backbar or similar equipment for public display and to inform the public of brands and flavors offered for sale.

    (b) A Class A-General retail establishment shall be staffed by a bartender whose primary duty is to open and/or prepare beverage alcohol products for consumption on the premises by paying customers, or prepared with an appropriate lid or cover on the container for take out service. Such an establishment must meet all state and local zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where a Class A-General retail outlet is located.

    (c) Repealed by Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2.

    (d) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a).

    (e) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (d) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A-General liquor permit to any bona fide commercial film theater which had a Class A liquor permit on January 1, 1994.

    (f) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (e) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A-General retail permit to any retail establishment for consumption on or off the premises. Such establishment must meet all state and local zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where the retail outlet is located. A Class A-General retail permit issued pursuant to the authority granted by this Subparagraph shall not be deemed or qualify as a prerequisite for the issuance of any other type license or permit issued by the state or any political subdivisions thereof.

    (g) The licensed premises of a Class A-General retail permit shall be able to accommodate a minimum of twenty-five patrons and contain no less than three hundred seventy-five square feet of public habitable floor area.

    (h) The commissioner shall promulgate rules regarding requirements related to the number and location of public restrooms to be used in conjunction with the licensed premises of each Class A-General retail permit.

    (i) Any Class A-General retail permit application submitted prior to September 1, 2001, shall not be required to meet the qualifications set forth in Subparagraph (g) of this Paragraph.

    (2) Class A-Restaurant:

    A Class A-Restaurant permit shall be issued only to a "restaurant establishment" as defined by R.S. 26:73(B) and issued to a facility in conjunction with a Class "R" restaurant permit under the provisions of R.S. 26:73.

    (3) Class A-Special:

    (a) A Class A-Special permit shall be issued to any facility which is situated on state-owned land, and which is being developed or operated by the state for public purposes, without the necessity for a local permit from the parish or municipality, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:81(B)(1) and (C), 273(A)(1), 281(B) and (C)(1), 582, and 595, if all other pertinent qualifications and conditions of this Title are satisfied, and such establishment meets all state zoning requirements as set forth by the state.

    (b)(i) The provisions of Subparagraph (a) of this Paragraph shall apply only to the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility, located in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana and shall be applicable only after the following proposition has been submitted to a local referendum election to the voters of Ward 3, Sabine Parish at the congressional general election to be held in 1994, with a favorable vote of a majority of votes cast, to wit:

    "Shall the sale of alcoholic beverage of both high and low alcohol content for consumption on the premises be permitted at the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana?"

    (ii) This Subparagraph shall be the sole and only enabling act necessary to call this election, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:587.

    (c) A Class A-Special permit shall be issued to the convention center facility located in the city of Natchitoches.

    (4) Class A-Restaurant-Conditional:

    (a) Any retail establishment holding a Class A-General permit issued pursuant to this Section may be issued a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit, provided it meets the requirements of R.S. 26:73(B)(1), (2), (3), (5), and (6) during the hours from 7:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. each day of operation.

    (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:90(A)(3)(a) or any other law to the contrary, any establishment which qualifies and receives a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit may permit any person under the age of eighteen on the premises between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m.

    (c) No additional fee shall be charged for the application or issuance of a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit.

    (d) Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, a retail establishment located at a public or private golf course licensed to operate video draw poker devices pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 6 of Title 27 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950 prior to January 1, 2004, may be issued a Class A-Restaurant-Conditional permit regardless of the amount or the percentage of food or food items sold at that establishment provided that the establishment meets all other criteria required by the provisions of this Chapter.

    Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 63, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 130, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2; Acts 1997, No. 378, 1; Acts 2001, No. 214, 1; Acts 2001, No. 1188, 1, eff. June 29, 2001; Acts 2004, No. 918, 2; Acts 2006, No. 469, 1; Acts 2006, No. 803, 1.
    Last edited by charlie12; 07-22-2010 at 05:10 PM.

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    I wonder how many have one of these. - (4) Class A-Restaurant-Conditional:

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