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Thread: why all the confusion on OC in a vehicle?

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    why all the confusion on OC in a vehicle?

    If I am going to open carry in my vehicle, where would you recommend that the gun be stored or displayed to be considered "open". Would it have to be on the dashboard, or passenger seat. I assume that being on my belt would be unacceptable since the officer wouldnt see it when approaching my vehicle. There seems to be alot of confusion on this aspect of open carry. I have noticed that the laws say that it is recommended that the gun be unloaded, seperate from ammunition blah blah blah...But I have no interest in recommendations, I am interested in the facts. I would think that the Laws on Firearms would be a little more specific on this matter. As far as just getting a CCW permit...I am not a big fan of being on any lists that the Sherriffs Dept has.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    WV definition of "Concealed"

    Quote Originally Posted by feeldasteel View Post
    If I am going to open carry in my vehicle, where would you recommend that the gun be stored or displayed to be considered "open". Would it have to be on the dashboard, or passenger seat. I assume that being on my belt would be unacceptable since the officer wouldnt see it when approaching my vehicle. There seems to be alot of confusion on this aspect of open carry. I have noticed that the laws say that it is recommended that the gun be unloaded, seperate from ammunition blah blah blah...But I have no interest in recommendations, I am interested in the facts. I would think that the Laws on Firearms would be a little more specific on this matter. As far as just getting a CCW permit...I am not a big fan of being on any lists that the Sherriffs Dept has.

    West Virginia code 61-7-2(10) defines concealed:
    "Concealed" means hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. A deadly weapon is concealed when it is carried on or about the person in such a manner that another person in the ordinary course of events would not be placed on notice that the deadly weapon was being carried.



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    I definitely wouldn't sit it up on the dashboard, per what was stated I would say that just placing it in the passenger seat beside you would be alright. I think if it were me I would just place it in a case unloaded with the ammo in the glove box just to avoid the big hassle such a situation may cause if the officer is unaware that the pistol is even there and just happen to take him by some sort of surprise and decides that you may be a threat then draw his own piece.
    What a big fiasco that could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickupman.45 View Post
    I definitely wouldn't sit it up on the dashboard, per what was stated I would say that just placing it in the passenger seat beside you would be alright. I think if it were me I would just place it in a case unloaded with the ammo in the glove box just to avoid the big hassle such a situation may cause if the officer is unaware that the pistol is even there and just happen to take him by some sort of surprise and decides that you may be a threat then draw his own piece.
    What a big fiasco that could be.
    yeah you are probably right...i just hate all that hassel of dealing with a box and all that....I usually do what you said, just sit it on the passenger seat. I havent been pulled over since I began to open carry, Ill probably just take your advice. i just dont understand why the laws have to be so vague...its either ok...or its not....ya know???
    Michael Binegar, Morgantown WV.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    mounted holster

    Securely mount a Level 2 (or 3) retention holster to the top of your dash and you'll be safe, legal, and prepared.

    As for the concealed law in WV, does anyone think that a sign on the driver's door, window, dashboard, or other readily visible portion of the vehicle, that said something to the effect of "NOTICE: Driver is Carrying A Firearm In A Holster On His Hip" would, in the ordinary course of events, place a person on notice that a deadly weapon was being carried?

    "hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition."
    If you're posting a sign on your person or conveyance that discloses that you are armed and with what you are armed, then you're not trying to prevent disclosure or recognition. For all intents and purposes, your carried weapons would not meet the WV definition of concealed, would they?

    That's a question, or some form thereof, that I'd pose to the Attorney General. It'd be interesting to read his response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Securely mount a Level 2 (or 3) retention holster to the top of your dash and you'll be safe, legal, and prepared.

    As for the concealed law in WV, does anyone think that a sign on the driver's door, window, dashboard, or other readily visible portion of the vehicle, that said something to the effect of "NOTICE: Driver is Carrying A Firearm In A Holster On His Hip" would, in the ordinary course of events, place a person on notice that a deadly weapon was being carried?

    "hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition."
    If you're posting a sign on your person or conveyance that discloses that you are armed and with what you are armed, then you're not trying to prevent disclosure or recognition. For all intents and purposes, your carried weapons would not meet the WV definition of concealed, would they?

    That's a question, or some form thereof, that I'd pose to the Attorney General. It'd be interesting to read his response.
    You know i have actually been considering the idea about some type of sticker as a warning on the back of my vehicle, just to keep a police officer who may pull me over from being suprised....that is a very good question! I think its a good idea regardless. I liked the idea of a dash mounted holster too!
    Michael Binegar, Morgantown WV.

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    The problem with stickers on vehicles is two fold. 1. It lets others know there might be a gun in your vehicle when you aren't there. I for one am not in favor of others knowing this when I'm parked in a public area and not near my vehicle, since the instances of theft have been rising I don't want somebody thinking all they have to do is smash out a window that they can steal my weapon when in fact it's not in my vehicle unless I am. and 2. Those bumper stickers that say "This vehicle protected by Smith and Wesson" aren't something that an LEO would consider placing them on notice as to the weapon actually being in the vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diensthunds View Post
    The problem with stickers on vehicles is two fold. 1. It lets others know there might be a gun in your vehicle when you aren't there. I for one am not in favor of others knowing this when I'm parked in a public area and not near my vehicle, since the instances of theft have been rising I don't want somebody thinking all they have to do is smash out a window that they can steal my weapon when in fact it's not in my vehicle unless I am. and 2. Those bumper stickers that say "This vehicle protected by Smith and Wesson" aren't something that an LEO would consider placing them on notice as to the weapon actually being in the vehicle.
    yeah good point...maybe a magnet that can be put on and taken off is a good idea. I drive a soft top Tracker too...so I NEVER leave my gun in it unless I am very close by and keep an eye on it.
    Michael Binegar, Morgantown WV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickupman.45 View Post
    I definitely wouldn't sit it up on the dashboard, per what was stated I would say that just placing it in the passenger seat beside you would be alright. I think if it were me I would just place it in a case unloaded with the ammo in the glove box just to avoid the big hassle such a situation may cause if the officer is unaware that the pistol is even there and just happen to take him by some sort of surprise and decides that you may be a threat then draw his own piece.
    What a big fiasco that could be.
    My question would be, how do I protect myself or my family with my gun in a case and the ammo in the glove box? Carjacker, could you please wait while I load my weapon.

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    I always thought we had to have our guns unloaded in our vehicles unless you had a ccw permit.If not can y'all point me to the law that says different.Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by 223fan View Post
    I always thought we had to have our guns unloaded in our vehicles unless you had a ccw permit.If not can y'all point me to the law that says different.Thanks
    The Chapter 20-2-6 and Chapter 61-7 of WV State Code along with various Municipal statues make up WV's gunlaws. As a LEO and a OC/CC supporter I encourage to read into both.

    Talking about the "presentation" of a openly carried PISTOL/HANDGUN Sooo many things we think about on each and every stop as soon as we encounter someone no mater if its stopping a random pedestrian or a traffic stop.
    Things such as, obviously the reason for the stop haha the general appearance of the vehicle(is it clean and neat?? is there lots of movement? are the windows so dark you cant tell how many occupants?)
    As a LEO you have to profile, not color,race, or religion but everything so if we pull over a dirty old truck with 2 dirty boys inside that look as if they crawled out from under a rock. Yes! we are gona watch them a little closer than grandma in her 98 Olds thats garage kept with 10,000 original miles comming home from church on sun afternoon.
    Keep that in mind in everyday life, don't look like a slouch with your pants sagging and ur cap on backwards like a idiot and wash ur car if you just came out of a coalmine. Second of all don't get any kind of attitude with cops saying things like "I know my rights!" We feed off from lines like that. Remember our favorite line is "Guilty until proven innocent"

    I'm gona say this and shut up.
    The other day I made a stop on a older veh, no bumper and its exaust was loud. The reason for the stop was No Registration light. No big deal, I walk up the side of the truck and didn't see not one beer can in the bed, so thats always good. In the drivers seat was a large man about 6'2" 260lbs full beard dressed in camo, both hands were going thru his wallet and next I noticed a M9 Beretta on the dash in a holster as I looked down to both of his hands searching thru his wallet after saying to myself ok there is a loaded weapon on the dash I can get him before he gets me because both of his hands are busy, I noticed as he flipped thru various cards in his wallet a WV Concealed Pistol Permit showed up I relaxed a bit (all retention on my weapons holster was disengaged as soon as I first noticed the weapon on the dash) He was not nervous at all, and turned out to be a good ole boy that believed in the 2nd ammendment. I got all of his information related to a veh stop inside my jacket then requested he hand me his weapon for his and my safety for the remainder of the stop, handing me with one hand around the holster, butt of weapon towards me. He proceded to inform me that there was one in the chamber,and safety was off which is the way we carry our M9s in the Air Force, so that was not a prob. I ran his weapon, it was clear he had a permit and all his ducks were in a row. (No citation was issued) He played his cards right not getting excited and trying to hand me his weapon or something crazy like that. I can't ride around with him everywhere so he feels the need to carry himself, MORE POWER TO HIM and anyone else thats capable

    The DNR says it is completely lawful to have a loaded HANDGUN in a vehicle for protection AS LONG AS IT IS NOT ONE CONFIGURED FOR HUNTING!

    I do ramble on a bit.. Please excuse me, I hope I helped a little giving another side to the story.

    READ,UNDERSTAND,ACT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortonrml View Post
    I ran his weapon, it was clear he had a permit and all his ducks were in a row. (No citation was issued)
    READ,UNDERSTAND,ACT!
    Was it legal for you to run his weapon?


    Im new to the whole OC thing but I thought that I had read and seen in some videos that you couldn't run the serial number just cause....and since it was OC (on his dash) and not CC.....does this matter in WV?


    If im wrong then pardon me but just trying to understand as I travel through WV going to Ohio every summer...Thank you!
    Last edited by Twiztid Angel; 03-09-2011 at 06:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortonrml View Post
    I ran his weapon, it was clear he had a permit and all his ducks were in a row. (No citation was issued)

    Did you also do him the disservice of entering his firearm and personal data in to eTrace?

    If the guy had a WV CP/RL, then it's a pretty safe assumption that he's not a felon or other type of criminal, and it's an even safer assumption that his gun is 100% legal.

    So why would you run his gun?

    He had a loud exhaust on his truck, forchissake...

    Did you search the cabin of his truck? After all, it's well known that moonshiners and pot growers in WV often use old, beat-up trucks in disrepair in their operations. Did you search his person? Did you look under the bed of his truck--pot farmers in WV have been known to smuggle bricks of weed in the spare tire under their truck bed...

    I mean REALLY... Running his gun? Really?

    What was your RAS that this gun was stolen, or otherwise involved in a crime?

    If he had a CP/RL, why did you feel the need to disarm him "for officer safety"? How many WV LEOs hav been shot by people with valid CC permits since WV started issuing permits? Again, what was your RAS for seizing his firearm?

    There is NO requirement under WV Statute to run a gun's numbers, or to seize a firearm during a routine traffic stop unless you have RAS to believe it has been used in a crime. In an incidental encounter like a traffic stop for a loud muffler, it is completely up to officer discretion. And it appears that although you didn't issue this rattle-trap-driving yahoo a traffic ticket, you DID succeed in doing a full-monty two-step all over his 2nd, 4th, 9th, and 14th Amendment rights...

    And again, I'll ask, did you enter the info into eTrace?

    Because if you did, that would just be icing on this already egregiously unconstitutional cake.

    I grew up in WV. I lived there for 26 years (21 years in the Northern Panhandle, 5 years in the Eastern Panhandle). I have several family members who are (or were) LEOs (State Trooper, Sheriff's Deputy), and most of my family still lives in WV, so I travel there to visit several times a year. I LOVE my home state, and I OC and CC there whenever I visit, and have been doing so for years without issue.

    But I find your story to be very off-putting. And I don't know which is worse--the fact that you admit to doing this sort of thing and STILL call yourself "supportive of OC/CC", or the cavalier attitude you appear to have toward the US and WV Constitution in the performance of your "duties". It has been my experience that LEOs in WV are MUCH more respectful of the Constitutional Rights of citizens. I hope this report of yours is NOT becoming "standard operating procedure" in the WV LE community--it certainly has not been my experience in the past.

    If this sort of behavior is what you consider to be "supportive of OC/CC", I'd hate to see how OC-hostile LEOs behave in WV...

    I hope I never travel through your jurisdiction. I don't have much tolerance for these sort "color of law" fishing expeditions. But I DO know how to file a formal complaint with a CO, and I DO know how to file a federal 42 Chapter 1983 civil rights violation suit, and I would suggest that the fine citizens of WV brush up on these procedures themselves.

    Happy trails...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortonrml View Post
    The Chapter 20-2-6 and Chapter 61-7 of WV State Code along with various Municipal statues make up WV's gunlaws. As a LEO and a OC/CC supporter I encourage to read into both.

    Talking about the "presentation" of a openly carried PISTOL/HANDGUN Sooo many things we think about on each and every stop as soon as we encounter someone no mater if its stopping a random pedestrian or a traffic stop.
    Things such as, obviously the reason for the stop haha the general appearance of the vehicle(is it clean and neat?? is there lots of movement? are the windows so dark you cant tell how many occupants?)
    As a LEO you have to profile, not color,race, or religion but everything so if we pull over a dirty old truck with 2 dirty boys inside that look as if they crawled out from under a rock. Yes! we are gona watch them a little closer than grandma in her 98 Olds thats garage kept with 10,000 original miles comming home from church on sun afternoon.
    Keep that in mind in everyday life, don't look like a slouch with your pants sagging and ur cap on backwards like a idiot and wash ur car if you just came out of a coalmine. Second of all don't get any kind of attitude with cops saying things like "I know my rights!" We feed off from lines like that. Remember our favorite line is "Guilty until proven innocent"

    I'm gona say this and shut up.
    The other day I made a stop on a older veh, no bumper and its exaust was loud. The reason for the stop was No Registration light. No big deal, I walk up the side of the truck and didn't see not one beer can in the bed, so thats always good. In the drivers seat was a large man about 6'2" 260lbs full beard dressed in camo, both hands were going thru his wallet and next I noticed a M9 Beretta on the dash in a holster as I looked down to both of his hands searching thru his wallet after saying to myself ok there is a loaded weapon on the dash I can get him before he gets me because both of his hands are busy, I noticed as he flipped thru various cards in his wallet a WV Concealed Pistol Permit showed up I relaxed a bit (all retention on my weapons holster was disengaged as soon as I first noticed the weapon on the dash) He was not nervous at all, and turned out to be a good ole boy that believed in the 2nd ammendment. I got all of his information related to a veh stop inside my jacket then requested he hand me his weapon for his and my safety for the remainder of the stop, handing me with one hand around the holster, butt of weapon towards me. He proceded to inform me that there was one in the chamber,and safety was off which is the way we carry our M9s in the Air Force, so that was not a prob. I ran his weapon, it was clear he had a permit and all his ducks were in a row. (No citation was issued) He played his cards right not getting excited and trying to hand me his weapon or something crazy like that. I can't ride around with him everywhere so he feels the need to carry himself, MORE POWER TO HIM and anyone else thats capable

    The DNR says it is completely lawful to have a loaded HANDGUN in a vehicle for protection AS LONG AS IT IS NOT ONE CONFIGURED FOR HUNTING!

    I do ramble on a bit.. Please excuse me, I hope I helped a little giving another side to the story.

    READ,UNDERSTAND,ACT!
    ---------- So on an officers stand point, what is the best way to inform the officer that you have ahand gun in the car/truck with you. I've heard time and time again, put in park ,roll the window down, and plce your hands up were the leo can see them, and then infom them on whats going on ---------- would you say change anything in this

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    First off, Dreamer cool your jets.. haha Talk about a radical... geeezz

    I'm not gona dive into detail but There is nothing saying that I HAVE to take his or her weapon on a NORMAL traffic stop. Its all Officer perception. If he has a CC permit don't really mean much to me. Just like the Ft. Hood tragedy he had the ID to lawfully be on base, did that matter? nope... Second, I asked for his permission. There ya go Lord no I didn't "Etrace" it.. We don't have that capability anyways. I did a quick NCIC check while I was checking his other info.


    HOTRODLINCON
    ---------- So on an officers stand point, what is the best way to inform the officer that you have ahand gun in the car/truck with you. I've heard time and time again, put in park ,roll the window down, and place your hands up were the leo can see them, and then infom them on whats going on ----------

    Just as others have said, that is ideal.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiztid Angel View Post
    Was it legal for you to run his weapon?
    I'd say so once the driver GAVE it to him.. I DO NOT TOUCH my weapon around LEO.

    I don't authorize any search or seizure of my person, property or papers. I do not authorize you to take by gun, BUT I am not going to keep you from taking it, just know you are doing it AGAINST my permission and my free will.

    Ed
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortonrml View Post
    First off, Dreamer cool your jets.. haha Talk about a radical... geeezz

    I'm not gona dive into detail but There is nothing saying that I HAVE to take his or her weapon on a NORMAL traffic stop. Its all Officer perception. If he has a CC permit don't really mean much to me. Just like the Ft. Hood tragedy he had the ID to lawfully be on base, did that matter? nope... Second, I asked for his permission. There ya go Lord no I didn't "Etrace" it.. We don't have that capability anyways. I did a quick NCIC check while I was checking his other info.


    HOTRODLINCON
    ---------- So on an officers stand point, what is the best way to inform the officer that you have ahand gun in the car/truck with you. I've heard time and time again, put in park ,roll the window down, and place your hands up were the leo can see them, and then infom them on whats going on ----------

    Just as others have said, that is ideal.
    I OC in my car at all times, the last time I was pulled over, which was the first time i have been pulled over while OCing, I did just that, rooled my window down, hands on the sill and told the officer I was open carrying my firearm. He looked in at my gun ( stuck in the cupholder, perfect fit) and asked if I had a permit. I said no, I dont need one, im OCing, he looked at me and said..."oh, ok" then walked back and wrote my ticket. I was suprised though at his lack of attention to it as he reapproached my vehicle, he was looking down at the ticket the entire way to my window.
    I completely understand if an officer is overly cautious in these instances. The slightest slip up could mean your life. You guys are out there doing your best to protect the citizens. I think the citizens (dreamer) should be a little more understanding of that. I would have no issue letting an officer run my gun, I know that it is legal, and I am doing nothing wrong. There is a fine line between being concious of your rights, and just trying to be an ass to a guy whos doin his job. I slip up at work, I may have to start over on what Im doing, you slip up, your family may never see you again. Thats why I understand.
    Michael Binegar, Morgantown WV.

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    Sir, I would really like to thank you for looking at the "big picture".

    The two most dangerous things in the LEO world are Domestics, and Traffic Stops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortonrml View Post
    Sir, I would really like to thank you for looking at the "big picture".

    The two most dangerous things in the LEO world are Domestics, and Traffic Stops.

    Yes, but that statistic doesn't mean what you think it means...

    LEOs that are killed or injured in traffic stops are something like 10 times more likely to be killed or injured by an uninvolved VEHICLE than they are by the violent actions of the suspect, and something like 100 times more likely to be killed by an uninvolved vehicle than by a perp with a gun...

    In other words, an LEO has a MUCH higher chance of being hit by a driver on the highway while he's making a stop, than by ANYTHING the suspect he just pulled over might do.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    I don't see a need for a Peace Officer to disarm a cooperative driver or run that weapon since there is no reason to suspect that the man is either a felon or in the possession of stolen property. Its quite annoying that its looked upon as perfectly acceptable for Law Enforcement Officers to under color of law ask people's permissions to give up some of their liberties temporarily for "safety".

    I understand if you have argumentative persons acting in nervous or otherwise apprehensive manners that you need to be on the alert but it would seem that a felon, rogue, or other fugitive from the law would not inform you about their weapons that would most likely be concealed from normal view and thus you would never be given the opportunity to disarm them or run their weapons until after they've attempted to present their weapon in a hostile manner.

    So, from a reasonable person's standpoint it seems like the disarming of permit holders or even just regular open carriers absent a serious violation of the law is a futile gesture only designed to make the disarming officer feel "safe" or more "powerful" then any actual legitimate need for security.

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    Same side guys.

    Well, One thing that we all need to remember here, is that we are all on the same side. I am sure that almost every person who open carries their firearm is a responsible person. OC is just a trait of that kind of person. Most criminals are gonna have their firearm hidden (that doesnt mean everyone with a hidden firearm is a criminal). The reason we open carry is because we feel a need to protect ourselves and our families from the bad guys. Police officers are here to protect you and your family from the bad guy too. We are all here in this state, making a conscious effort to make it a better, and safer place to live. For some it is a personal choice, for others it is a personal choice AND a job. I dont know about you, but If I were an officer and walked up on a vehicle with a gun on the dash, I would be very cautious. I would not run the gun , but I would pay attention to the details of the persons background when I went back to write the ticket or warning or whatever. Its easy to forget that these guys asses are on the line every time they put on a badge. I think we should give em a little slack. I think that would help the cause more than damage it. OCers and police officers working together instead of against each other seems like a great idea to me! So lets work towards that guys instead of being so critical of eachother.
    Michael Binegar, Morgantown WV.

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