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Thread: Potential for Unintended Consequences of New CC Restaurant Law?

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    Potential for Unintended Consequences of New CC Restaurant Law?

    Just wonder about peoples' thoughts on how the new CC law might affect OC, if at all? Since they can't serve CC holders alcohol will they start asking everyone? How will they know or will they not know nor care? Will they get confused and refuse to serve those that OC? Will more restaurants be frustrated trying to figure out how to apply the law and put up "no gun" signs?

    This has probably already been discussed, but I didn't find it by doing a search. If it's already a dead horse, please just post the link to the thread.

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    Regular Member kennys's Avatar
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    This should be a no brainer. A law abiding gun owner is not the ones to worry about it’s the criminals. Than again just as normal a criminal is going to carry any way with out a permit and doing what they want. But I guess the anti’s won’t see it that way. I guess we shall soon see.
    The only un-intended consequences I am worried about however are those on this following thread.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ly-1st-dinners

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    Regular Member AdamC's Avatar
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    I would hope it wouldn't change at all. The responsibility for obeying the law falls on the consumer of the alcohol, not the server or ABC manager and so they shouldn't feel any pressure to act differently. I can't see the restaurants in my area, at least, asking every customer if they're carrying; I don't think I've ever even been carded at a restaurant.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happybucklander View Post
    Just wonder about peoples' thoughts on how the new CC law might affect OC, if at all? Since they can't serve CC holders alcohol will they start asking everyone? How will they know or will they not know nor care? Will they get confused and refuse to serve those that OC? Will more restaurants be frustrated trying to figure out how to apply the law and put up "no gun" signs?

    This has probably already been discussed, but I didn't find it by doing a search. If it's already a dead horse, please just post the link to the thread.
    A bigger concern is putting up no open carry signs. Many places don't have a problem with guns, they just don't want to take the chance of having other customers complain.

    Since OC has been the only legal way, they've let it go but now they may just say cover it up.

    I've run into this before and when they find CC isn't legal or in my case, no permit, they just say no guns period and lose the business we would give.

    Time will tell.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happybucklander View Post
    Just wonder about peoples' thoughts on how the new CC law might affect OC, if at all? Since they can't serve CC holders alcohol will they start asking everyone? How will they know or will they not know nor care? Will they get confused and refuse to serve those that OC? Will more restaurants be frustrated trying to figure out how to apply the law and put up "no gun" signs?
    Of all your suggested possibilities, I suspect the bolded one will be the most likely. And unfortunately, a customer trying to argue that it is legal to server OC'ers, probably won't be doing much to help the cause.

    TFred

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    I think it is a non issue. I went to dinner at the texas roadhouse last night on independence in Virginia Beach with a 38 in a pocket holster.

    I know that contrary to what the liberals at work believed would happen it was a pretty much non event. I was not asked if I was carrying a gun when I ordered my iced tea. No one was shot (at least while I was there), no blood in the bar area, no bodies in the parking lot, etc, etc.

    Anyone who is carrying and drinking has to make up their own mind if in public. Open carry and drinking is legal. I don't advise it. If I owned an establishment that sold alcohol I would probably not serve anyone who was carrying a gun due to the liability I would face if you were involved in a shooting later and shown to be under the influence.

    Just my opinion though.

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    The Onus is on the Gun Owner, not the restaurant owner

    I believe that the law states that you may not drink while CCing, not that the restaurant may not serve you alcohol.

    There's a difference: if you drink while CCing, there are only penalties for you, not for the server.

    No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer while actually engaged in the performance of his official duties.

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    Regular Member Tricorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcmech View Post
    ...Anyone who is carrying and drinking has to make up their own mind if in public. Open carry and drinking is legal. I don't advise it. If I owned an establishment that sold alcohol I would probably not serve anyone who was carrying a gun due to the liability I would face if you were involved in a shooting later and shown to be under the influence.

    Just my opinion though.
    Would you serve someone carrying car keys? Consider the liability of someone who drives away from your establishment and rams into a mini-van killing a family and is shown to be under the influence.

    What is the difference between carrying a firearm and driving a vehicle? Since you say you don't advise it, i assume you don't drink when carrying. Do you have a drink or two (or more) and then get behind the wheel of your weapon of mass destruction?

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    I agree if you are OCing and you order a singular beer with lunch the waitstaff may be confused.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Of all your suggested possibilities, I suspect the bolded one will be the most likely. And unfortunately, a customer trying to argue that it is legal to server OC'ers, probably won't be doing much to help the cause.

    TFred
    Carrying a business card-sized collection of the few applicable laws and the website where they can be referenced by the restaurant manager is a good step in the right direction.

    Something like (no actual laws, here - it's just an example):

    Format:
    Title

    Statute: Summary
    Statute: Summary
    Statute: Summary

    http://www.website.com

    Example:
    (front side)
    Colorado's Concealed Carry Laws

    CRS 18-12-214: Concealed carry is permitted in a restaurant, bar, or other private business establishment except where prohibited by the private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business.

    http://shr.elpasoco.com/

    It shouldn't try to cover all bases, mind you - just the ones likely to be in people's minds, such as "Do you need a permit to open carry?" and "Can you open carry in a restaurant?", etc.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Carrying a business card-sized collection of the few applicable laws and the website where they can be referenced by the restaurant manager is a good step in the right direction.
    Several users in Virginia do make, and make available to others, such cards.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ing-the-public

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    Quote Originally Posted by happybucklander View Post
    Since they can't serve CC holders alcohol will they start asking everyone?
    Start asking everyone what? Remember that these bartenders are NOT law-enforcement officers. It is not their job to enforce the law.

    As far as I can tell, this is different than serving minors. For them to serve a minor is a crime. For them to serve someone carrying a concealed handgun is not. If a crime is committed, by a person carrying concealed drinking, then the crime is committed by that person. Not the bartender.

    If the bartender asks you if you are carrying a gun, just say no... or yes, or whatever you want to say. Telling them a lie isn't the same thing as telling a law-enforcement officer you aren't carrying when really you are.

    I think all of a sudden people are starting to think that bartenders are responsible for making sure everyone upholds the law now. What gives?

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    I got a a response from a LEO friend

    So, I was at an event last night with a Faifax County LEO - very nice guy. He walks up and says "I thought of you the other day, the law has changed....". I said, "yeah I know, and how do you think the restaurant owners and managers will respond?" I brought up the concern that I raised here.

    He basically said he thinks that they won't respond at all because they are too afraid of the bad press sites like this and others will lodge against them.

    I agree with the point that the restaurants aren't responsible for law enforcement.

    Time will tell how it plays out, but I think it's a good thing that the whole subject is in the news.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    It hasn't been a problem in 42 other states and it hasn't been an issue with OC in restaurants ("bars" [sic]) for decades in Virginia.

    I just don't understand the mentality of people who contend that the method of carry will somehow lead to increased violence and "blood running in the streets". Carry HAS BEEN lawful for years. The option to conceal cannot, to a rational mind, provide a vehicle for an increase in gun-related incidents.

    It is patently ludicrous.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    ^^ I think the issue here wylde, is the fact that alcohol, even one drink, alters that rational mind. Even road safety officials stress not to operate a motor vehicle after any alcohol consumption, so why would you risk handling a loaded gun. And the probability that a drunk individual lunging for your gun is probably tenfold of a sober individual making that mistake.
    The libertarian mind disagrees with perhaps not the entire statement, but the application of its fuzzy logic. "Road Safety Officials" (read: MADD Kool-aid drinking morons) stress not to operate a motor vehicle after alcohol consumption. Why would I risk handling a loading gun? Because I trust myself to make the right decisions and it is not my place to dictate to others when to make that choice for themselves. Nobody has that authority.

    Sleep deprivation, even a little, alters the rational mind. An argument with a spouse or coworker, even a small one, alters the rational mind. Ingestion of OTC sinus medication, even a little, alters the rational mind.

    The probability that some drunk will lunge for my sidearm is really of such minuscule concern that I cannot fathom it being an issue. It becomes even less likely if I am successfully concealed. Explain how a drunken patron is going to lunge for a holstered weapon that they do not even know is there?

    It's all about personal responsibility... a trait that has long been ignored and downplayed by the liberal population and their political lackeys in the interest of more control over others. It is downright sickening.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    My argument puts aside liberal and conservative viewpoints and concentrates on human nature. Even if you have control over your own actions, do you have control of 8-10 drunk patrons whom you may stumble into an altercation with?
    Do you have control of 3-4 angry bank robbers in a credit union? According to your logic, you shouldn't carry there. How about 2 rapists in a dark alley? Do you have control of them? Where, exactly, do you "have control" over other people? Why, if you have control of them, do you need a firearm? Maybe it's me, but why should your ability to control OTHERS (or lack thereof), determine whether or not you should have a defensive tool? I would think you would need a firearm MORE where you have less control than where you can play puppet master at your will.

    I just believe that a gun has little or no place in an area where people have an altered state of mind due to intoxication, not emotions.
    Hmmmmm. So folks shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves on the Northside of St. Louis? Trust me. Take a walk down North Grand or Kingshighway at about 1a.m. on a Friday night. I'll bet almost everyone you meet is loaded up on one thing or another. You are saying that I shouldn't be able to defend myself from these jacked up individuals?

    The point regarding OTC medication and confrontation with a co-worker is moot because this law pertains to an establishment in the alcohol serving business, not the hurt feeling/ pharmacy business.
    So folks who try to jack you up are fair game if they're using prescription drugs, but those who try to jack you up while drunk are a protected class?

    WHY is it considered wrong to defend your life against an attacker who is knocked out of his gourd from alcohol, but peachy if he's loaded up on anything else? Maybe you can educate me on why, if you are only going to use your firearm on a person who places you in fear for your life or bodily harm, it is fine.......

    ....unless they're drunk.

    Why does their condition alter the justification of your fear?

    Why does your safety, or your ability to protect it, suddenly become a bad thing based on location, or the blood/alcohol content of your attacker?

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    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    I think an issue that may arrise is someone Va tucking for the purpose of lawfully consuming alcohol and then debate occurring on OC vs CC. Va tucking has always been a bit of a gray area and I can see where that may come into play here.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    The point regarding OTC medication and confrontation with a co-worker is moot because this law pertains to an establishment in the alcohol serving business, not the hurt feeling/ pharmacy business.
    And my point is that the law is intended to mandate certain reactions regarding our liberties.

    Your argument doesn't put aside "liberal and conservative" viewpoints, it specifically iterates your accession to government's decision to make rules about things for which they have no business making rules.

    You say "establishments serving alcohol" and, either deliberately or ignorantly, neglect to consider that a family of four dining at Applebee's on a Wednesday at 6 PM is exactly the same, under the laws of the Commonwealth, as a group of revelers at The Canal Club on Saturday at 11 PM.

    In the eyes of the law they are identical and you are saying that a husband and father should not take his family out for supper at a restaurant which happens to serve alcohol because the opportunity for a drunken patron to assault him and abscond with his personal defensive weapon is increased due to his proximity to alcohol?

    Do you realize the inanity of that statement? That's exactly what you are saying. And, though I know it could bring on the kind of flaming for which only the internet provides opportunity and motive... and at the risk of appearing the "bad guy"... I went out last night with my family to a restaurant which serves alcohol. I had a hearty meal and enjoyed a beer with it.

    I did so in the presence of a table full of Virginia Beach police. Then, I got on my motorcycle with my openly carried sidearm and rode home.

    I didn't shoot anyone. Nobody lunged for my gun as I was leaving, despite that I walked past the "bar" area of the restaurant replete with some questionable and possibly inebriated characters and neither did I ride my sled into a busload of school children.

    Again - it is an issue of personal responsibility, situational awareness and libertarian perspective. You don't believe you could be responsible and therefor PROJECT that disability/weakness/discomfort onto others around you.

    It is immoral and unjust to characterize or dictate to someone else for your own insecurities. It is a fatal flaw in most legislation as I see it today.
    Quote Originally Posted by superlite27
    Why does their condition alter the justification of your fear?
    Thank you, sir.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    I think an issue that may arrise is someone Va tucking for the purpose of lawfully consuming alcohol and then debate occurring on OC vs CC. Va tucking has always been a bit of a gray area and I can see where that may come into play here.
    What's gray about the tuck?

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    1. you have never, and probably will never be involved in a bank robbery.
    2. Why would I walk into a dangerous part of town at 1 am, thats looking for trouble, much like going into a bar with a gun and drinking is looking for trouble.
    3. You are so far on the right wing it is possible you might fall off of the ledge.


    Listen all I'm saying is that
    A. You know for a fact that there are going to be multiple excessively drunk individuals at the bar
    B. Drinking, for a fact, induces lapses in judgement
    C. Adding a gun to the mix of alcohol and a large crowd isn't smart
    D. Barfights are common, all of us have witnessed them

    Listen the problem I have encountered so far with regards to my postings are the same problems I would encouter if I posted pro-gun agendas at a brady website. Everyone is just a little hyper-sensitive. I have always been taught to analyze both sides of an issue before commenting on it, which is why I read both anti and pro-gun media and decipher the facts much like a sieve strains water from pasta. The problem is that your comments do not look at both sides of the issue. Its well and fine that you hold so close to the second amendment, but the fact is that it is not going away whether or not you decide to bring a gun into a bar/church/spaceship.
    All of these what-ifs and hypotheticals mean nothing and all they do is serve to very weakly reinforce your point that maybe, just maybe, when you and your gun/taser/knife/ziptie combo are in a situtation of peril (provided that you don't fail miserably and end up a statistic) you can say wow, my gun saved me.
    Listen, I carry, I open carry, but I have sense enough to realize when the time is right and not right, and I stand firm in my belief that a gun in a bar is just not a good choice. Go on ranting about how much you value your life and all this other garbage but for those 15 or so years before you carried a gun, when you were just a teensey weensey little lad, vulnerable to kidnap/murder, no attempt was made on your life, and if it was, you survived it
    With a post count of 5, I doubt that you know this has been debated to death.
    I won't drag out the dead horse GIF because I'm busy.

    FWIW, I happen to side with you for the most part but even with things I feel strongly about, give others the right to carry as they wish within the law.

    Wylde can and will take care of his side of the argument. He's good at it.
    You were doing OK until you got here:
    Go on ranting about how much you value your life and all this other garbage
    That cost you a lot of credibility!

  21. #21
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    1. you have never, and probably will never be involved in a bank robbery.
    I have, and probably will never be involved in a shooting incident at a restaurant which serves alcohol.
    2. Why would I walk into a dangerous part of town at 1 am, that's looking for trouble, much like going into a bar with a gun and drinking is looking for trouble.
    Perhaps that person is forced by necessity to hoof it from their place of business in a relatively safe part of town to their home in another relatively safe part of town which happens to take them THROUGH a relatively unsafe part of town, hmm?
    Barfights are common, all of us have witnessed them
    And some of us have been involved in them. I got hit so hard one time I didn't wake up until the next afternoon. My possession, openly or otherwise, of a sidearm probably would not have affected the outcome, I can say that with some certainty.

    Barroom brawls are not all that common. They happen. Do they happen with great frequency at Applebee's or Ruby Tuesday's? Of course not, but under THE LAW they are exactly the same as The Thirsty Camel or The Laughing Horse.
    I won't drag out the dead horse GIF because I'm busy.
    I've got a couple of minutes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  22. #22
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    Maybe you have gotten used to explaining things that way to other members on the board, but I assure you, I am quite intelligent.
    We hear that a lot from people who turn out to not really be.

    A lot of liberals are very intelligent. That doesn't make them wise. Or useful.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    ^^ I love the use of red highlighter like my teachers in grade school and professors in college. Its like if its not in bold with an arrow sign on it I wouldn't understand what you were conveying? Maybe you have gotten used to explaining things that way to other members on the board, but I assure you, I am quite intelligent. No offense meant as you are probably one of the only ones who will side with me on this issue. I will be closely following incidents related to this new law, and only time will tell if McDonnell did the right thing
    I highlighted it because I saw you were from up North.
    I guess intelligence is relative.

  24. #24
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9Sub View Post
    You, my friend, are what I like to call, full of contradictions.
    Really? How so?
    You got the **** beaten out of you and stated if you had a gun the outcome would have been the same?
    taken out of context, you might make some sense to a weak-minded drone, but I don't fall into such a category.

    I got blindsided. The moment I was out at least three other patrons (friends of mine) jumped on the guy and hauled his ass out of the door.
    You got knocked out and the assailant sees your gun on your hip, and then what? Who knows, I'm a realist, not a guy with a crystal ball, but I'm guessing the outcome isn't him buying you a shot later that evening.
    You make a lot of assumptions. That's not just irresponsible, it's dangerous. Being a self-righteous know-it-all is no better than a boorish lout.
    And you say you have to walk home out of necessity, another what-if, because I guess public transportation doesn't exist anymore. But yet you put yourself at risk walking into a bar with a loaded gun, KNOWINGLY and then try to justify it.
    More assumptions with no context. I was giving a "for instance" not describing my own personal situation.
    Whatever, I'm done with you
    Thank God.
    And I have this strong feeling that carrying a gun all the time is somewhat breeding a heightened sense of paranoia rather than a sense of serenity. Just another humble opinion.
    So why, then, are you even here? Do you only carry a gun "some of the time" because you happen to know when you are going to be attacked?

    If I had that kind of clairvoyant ability, I'd buy a lottery ticket.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap
    I guess intelligence is relative.
    Ain't that the truth?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    I agree with Phil on one point. either everyone should be allowed to carry and drink or no one should" . This references the provisions allowing commonwealth attorneys and off duty leos, not in the line of duty to do so. I recognize that an under cover officer might have too drink as part of his or her cover. Personally, I'm all for not drinking while carrying, but the law should be equal. Another question I have is what about N.A, beer such as O'Doul"s? I often have one or two of those with pizza if I'm driving. But, I've heard that there is still a small alcoholic content

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