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Thread: question about new law - prohibit cc while sitting at the bar area

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    question about new law - prohibit cc while sitting at the bar area

    Is there anything on the book that would prohbit cc while sitting at the bar area of a resturant

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    No, provided you are legally possessing the gun and not consuming alcohol (or have alcohol in your system IIRC - don't quote me on this bit)
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachpatriot13 View Post
    Is there anything on the book that would prohbit cc while sitting at the bar area of a resturant
    no

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    Cool

    Ok thanks I think I'm gonna move seats now

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachpatriot13 View Post
    Is there anything on the book that would prohbit cc while sitting at the bar area of a resturant
    Not if you have a valid CHP or a permit from a state recognized by Virginia.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just for kicks, the relevant part of the law went from:

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia;
    to:

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-04-2010 at 12:12 AM. Reason: Changed second link to point to the actual chapter for this change, to keep this link valid for all future reference.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    No, provided you are legally possessing the gun and not consuming alcohol (or have alcohol in your system IIRC - don't quote me on this bit)
    You can have alcohol in your system TJ. It is still illegal to be intoxicated while carrying a firearm regardless of OC/CC. The problem is 'intoxicated' is undefined, so it is up to officer discretion.

    J3 specifically says CONSUME ON PREMISES. It is perfectly legal to drink while CCing off premises. (As long as you don't become 'intoxicated').

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    Wink

    I see no reason why you could not purchase alcohol in a restaurant or tavern while CC'ing as long as you didn't drink it and gave it to a friend. Would you be my friend?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Interesting point

    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    You can have alcohol in your system TJ. It is still illegal to be intoxicated while carrying a firearm regardless of OC/CC. The problem is 'intoxicated' is undefined, so it is up to officer discretion.

    J3 specifically says CONSUME ON PREMISES. It is perfectly legal to drink while CCing off premises. (As long as you don't become 'intoxicated').
    That is an interesting observation, Joe.

    Many of us have been saying , for brevity I think, that it is illegal to consume while CCing - t'aint necessarily so. It is only a violation in a club, restaurant etc. that is licensed to sell for on premises consumption.

    Though I am a little hard pressed to define locations where CC would be legal while consuming other than at a neighbors BBQ or similar, it is a point worth remembering.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is an interesting observation, Joe.
    +1

    I was referring to J1 which for some reason I thought agreed with what I put in parentheses. Under the influence seems to be the appropriate phrase.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Remember you can still OC. And consume alcohol while OCing. If the barkeep lets you...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Remember you can still OC. And consume alcohol while OCing. If the barkeep lets you...
    True enough. Each person decides what fits their bounds of propriety in view of the public image they are projecting. I choose to not tatter my cloak, least it not protect me from the elements.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    True enough. Each person decides what fits their bounds of propriety in view of the public image they are projecting. I choose to not tatter my cloak, least it not protect me from the elements.
    Nice analogy.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just for kicks, the relevant part of the law went from:

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia;
    to:

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    TFred
    What if you OC onto the premisis and conceal later?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    What if you OC onto the premisis and conceal later?
    Do you expect an answer? It's not explicitly covered in the statute, and there obviously hasn't been time for a case yet... I suppose your guess would be as good as anyone else's!

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    What if you OC onto the premisis and conceal later?
    The letter of the law would allow it. Would you care to be the test case?

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    The letter of the law would allow it.
    I disagree. The law states:

    No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    Big grey area, yes. If you OC'd and drank at one establishment and then left and CC'd at another, I think you'd be ok. But if you drank while OC and then concealed at the SAME place, I think you'd be opening yourself up for a trip to jail because you have consumed alcohol on the SAME PREMISES....I wouldn't want to be the wind-test dummy.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    I disagree. The law states:

    No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    Big grey area, yes. If you OC'd and drank at one establishment and then left and CC'd at another, I think you'd be ok. But if you drank while OC and then concealed at the SAME place, I think you'd be opening yourself up for a trip to jail because you have consumed alcohol on the SAME PREMISES....I wouldn't want to be the wind-test dummy.
    First, I don't drink. Second, I very much agree that nobody wants to be the test case here.

    Having said that, maybe the letter of the law is conflicting.

    "who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises"

    This could just have easily been worded:

    "who, while carrying a concealed handgun upon the premises"

    That changes the meaning drastically, and if that were the law, would bring it more in line with what you are trying to say. But it isn't written that way.

    Sadly, only because I don't like judges writing laws, I am afraid that it is going to come to that one day, a judge finishing the job that the legislature didn't.

    TFred

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Why attorneys get paid the big bucks

    This is exactly why defense attorneys get paid the big bucks. No matter how much thought goes into the writing of a bill that becomes law, there is almost *always* room for interpretation.

    Now, while IANAL, it seems to me that the law is fairly clear -- I can CC in any establishment covered by the law (club or restaurant) and legally be sitting anywhere in that establishment, including sitting on a stool in the bar area of that restaurant or club, so long as I do not consume an alcoholic beverage.

    Now, if that barkeep in Richmond somehow infers that I'm CCing -- maybe my jacket gapped open -- and tells the cops that I ordered and he served me an alcoholic beverage, then the cops have a problem ... who to believe?

    Short of this kind of vendetta type situation, as long as I obey the law, I can be anywhere in that restaurant, including the bar, IMHO.

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    abc licenses other than for restaurants and clubs

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is an interesting observation, Joe.

    Many of us have been saying , for brevity I think, that it is illegal to consume while CCing - t'aint necessarily so. It is only a violation in a club, restaurant etc. that is licensed to sell for on premises consumption.

    Though I am a little hard pressed to define locations where CC would be legal while consuming other than at a neighbors BBQ or similar, it is a point worth remembering.
    There are many places that may be licensed to serve alcohol that are defined separately from "restaurant" or "club" and meet the definition of neither.

    http://www.abc.virginia.gov/licensing/liccost.htm

    Perhaps (though some of these may be close to or meet the definition of restaurant):

    • a hotel (questionable as most licenses are described as "restaurant" even though the license type is "hotel." I don't know if a hotel license allows a stand-alone bar to be set up outside of a "restaurant" area.);
    • coliseum, stadium, amphitheater, motor sports facility, performing arts facility, special event;
    • hospital;
    • day spa (for massage or cosmetology services);
    • Meal Assembly Kitchen (Commercial establishment offering ingredients for the preparation of meals; example: Corner Cuisine in Lorton);
    • grocery store; (note: this is a very special on-premises license only available in rural areas where there is substantial public demand; not to be confused with a restaurant license that, say, Wegmans has in suburban/urban Northern Virginia.)
    • resort complex;
    • catered events under a caterer's license;
    • boat, train, airplane;
    • banquet;
    • bed and breakfast;
    • equestrian events;
    • possibly a winery, brewery, or distillery, depending on the specifics of their license.

    For easy reference, I've included the restaurant and club definitions from 4.1-100 here:
    "Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.

    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    First, I don't drink. Second, I very much agree that nobody wants to be the test case here.

    Having said that, maybe the letter of the law is conflicting.

    "who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises"

    This could just have easily been worded:

    "who, while carrying a concealed handgun upon the premises"

    That changes the meaning drastically, and if that were the law, would bring it more in line with what you are trying to say. But it isn't written that way.

    Sadly, only because I don't like judges writing laws, I am afraid that it is going to come to that one day, a judge finishing the job that the legislature didn't.

    TFred
    TFred,
    I know you don't carry and drink. Neither do I. I was addressing jofrdo's comment about you being a test case. Sorry for the confusion!
    Last edited by ODA 226; 07-18-2010 at 04:27 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    TFred,
    I know you don't carry and drink. Neither do I. I was addressing jofrdo's comment about you being a test case. Sorry for the confusion!
    I didn't infer that at all! I only included that as more of an "I don't have a dog in this hunt" sort of way.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor
    So, if the restaurant or club is selling alcohol without an ABC license, I'm in the clear!

    Rockbridge County, here I come! I wanna get me summa dat 'shine!




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    If'n you want shine then for goodness sake don't buy it commercial/retail.

    We have recently visited friends in Connestee Falls, NC, that like to hike. They've showed us many, a half dozen or more, old abandoned stills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    If'n you want shine then for goodness sake don't buy it commercial/retail.

    We have recently visited friends in Connestee Falls, NC, that like to hike. They've showed us many, a half dozen or more, old abandoned stills.
    aHA!! Just as I suspected! A BATFE agent in disguise trying to entrap me!

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