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Thread: Handcuffed for open carry on motorcycle

  1. #1
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Open carry

    To any potential employer who may see my posts on this forum:

    Today is May 31st, 2015. I was an active member five years ago but no longer am I active and my views have changed on the matter of open carry. Anything you read on this forum was written by me at a time where I was transitioning from the Marine Corps to civilian life. I was still very much in my military mindset and I was learning about personal rights for the first time. The degree I have earned recently has transformed me into a responsible and sensible person. I can only hope that you will be understanding and recognize the person I am today and not who I was 5 years ago.
    Last edited by Brent Evertz; 05-31-2015 at 07:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    SNIP What lesson did I learn? That I will continue to open carry when I need to and also conceal when my attire or situation allows, PERIOD!
    No offense, but I think you are bringing away the wrong lesson.

    Something over a million Americans died defending the rights the cops walked on during your seizure today. Why spit on their graves by giving in to the cops? Make the cops respect your rights.

    If it is not illegal to OC where you live, one has to wonder the legal justification for your seizure. I kinda doubt they had one, since you don't mention being cited for speed or an equipment violation or anything.

    Here is a quote from a US Supreme Court decision:

    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Company vs Botsford.

    No right. More sacred. More carefully guarded. Free from all restraint. Free from all interference. Unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.

    This was a case from 1891. Yet, the US Supreme Court saw fit to include it in a decision as recently as the late 1960's. They did not water it down. They could have left it out. But, they didn't. They put it in the 1960's case exactly as you see quoted above. And, it was recently quoted in a federal case out of New Mexico last year. St John vs Alamagordo.

    I think you were seized illegally. It is not so much a 2nd Amendment issue. It is much more a 4th Amendment issue (search and seizure). I consider that the correct lesson is something along the lines of, "Cops ain't super-citizens. They ain't above the law. Government's only got the authority it is given. Guess I got some work to do to straighten out the cops around here."

    Realize too that for grumpy cop it is very unlikely you were the first illegal seizure in his career. He likes enforcing his opinion. Not the law. You are likely doing future potential detainees a favor, too, by following up on this.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    That's a very good quote you cited there. I didn't mean from my lesson that i'm giving in to the cop. I meant that I will continue to practice the right's i've been given by open carrying and if I feel like concealing then I will.

    As far as the fourth amendment goes I'm not entirely sure of it's exact meaning. It was my understanding that its protection from "search and seizure" as in they may not search unless consent is given or without first obtaining a search warrant ( I wasn't searched) and being cuffed doesn't mean that your under arrest therefore doesn't equate to being seized. Correct me if I'm wrong on this..

    I too don't believe I'm the first guy this cop has done this too. Don't you think it may be a possibility though if everyone that had a permit to carry, practiced it by openly carrying their handgun, that this may bring an unwanted level of dispute over the law allowing you to do so? And may in turn cause state legislatures to make states that allow open carry, only a conceal state?

    It seems to me that with the increasing number of people obtaining permits, this would cause too much effort for police to ensure that you in fact are legally allowed to carry. Not only that but what would happen when criminals start to think that if they open carry, they won't get checked since everyone does it. You know what I'm saying? I think open carry is necessary but if it were done too much, I can see the damage that it will bring to our rights to do so legally. It just allows a window for criminals to care less about having to conceal their arms. Let me know your thoughts on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    SNIP As far as the fourth amendment goes I'm not entirely sure of it's exact meaning. It was my understanding that its protection from "search and seizure" as in they may not search unless consent is given or without first obtaining a search warrant ( I wasn't searched) and being cuffed doesn't mean that your under arrest therefore doesn't equate to being seized. Correct me if I'm wrong on this..
    It is getting late. Just because I don't address everything in your post does not mean I think something unworthy of response.

    Let me help you join the ranks of those who understand their rights better than most. Certainly better than some cops would like.

    Basically, anytime the police restrict your freedom to leave, you are seized. A foot-encounter where a cop tells you to put your hands up, or cuffs you, is definitely a seizure, even if you are not arrested. The executive branch tried to pull this trick (no arrest = no seizure) in very same 1960's case I mentioned above. That case is called Terry vs Ohio.

    Here are some quotes to help clear things up for you. This is not everything to know. Just enough to clear up what you mentioned in your post above. Here is the money quote about a detention, short of arrest, still being a seizure for the purposes of the 4A. It comes from the 1968 case Terry vs Ohio:

    There is some suggestion in the use of such terms as "stop" and "frisk" that such police conduct is outside the purview of the Fourth Amendment because neither action rises to the level of a "search" or "seizure" within the meaning of the Constitution.We emphatically reject this notion. It is quite plain that the Fourth Amendment governs "seizures" of the person which do not eventuate in a trip to the stationhouse and prosecution for crime -- "arrests" in traditional terminology.



    The following quotes are from US vs Mendenhall, where the court quotes earlier decisions.

    ...The Fourth Amendment requirement that searches and seizures be founded upon an objective justification, governs all seizures of the person, including seizures that involve only a brief detention short of traditional arrest. Davis v. Mississippi, (1969); Terry v. Ohio, (1968). United States v. Brignoni-Ponce

    ...But [o]bviously, not all personal intercourse between policemen and citizens involves "seizures" of persons. Only when the officer, by means of physical force or show of authority, has in some way restrained the liberty of a citizen may we conclude that a "seizure" has occurred. Terry v. Ohio

    US vs Mendenhall: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html

    Terry vs Ohio:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

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    Also, you can learn vital information from the videos linked below. The forum post linked below has tons of useful information, too.

    Busted: A Citizens Guide to Police Encounters:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA


    Ten Rules for Dealing with Police:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrbN...layer_embedded

    Don't Talk to Police by Prof. James Duane:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc


    Resource thread:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...light=inchoate

  6. #6
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Thank you for all of this. I actually just received my permit to carry and all of this is very interesting to me. It inspires me to learn more about our rights in this country in great detail. It also inspires me to challenge all who try to refute our rights. I will do my homework on this until I understand it as much as a lawyer does. I feel obligated to do so since I did fight for my country which means I fought for our liberty.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I could hear cop #2 in the background telling his sergeant, "freakin unbelievable, this guy was riding around with his gun out in the open." His sergeant didn't say anything...

    They get the call back with all clear, good to go, after about 15 minutes. Cop #2 gave me back my license and permit and told me to conceal it next time.
    Conceal it next time?
    "How about ....nope. What are you going to do, cite me? arrest me? How's that working out for you right now? Want to do this again tomorrow?"


    PS -Citizen. Sir, I am totally going to steal the "Inchoate" idea; many's the time I've tried to find a post of mine and had too many mixed results. Next time, I might just remember to put in an unusual keyword to help find things.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-05-2010 at 01:33 PM.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Brent,

    I would like to write a Minneapolis Gun Rights Examiner column about your experience and see what we can do about educating the officers involved. Could you email me at John@OpenCarry.org so I could get you my contact info so that we might talk?

    Thanks!


    John

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    I was riding around Lake Calhoun on my motorcycle with my walther p99 on my hip. I pass by numerous police but they haven't seemed to care but I figured they just haven't seen it yet. Now i'm not looking for trouble by open carrying but I do have my gun on me ALL THE TIME. Concealing this type of weapon while riding isn't comfortable period.

    Well I lapped the lake once and came back around again, this time to head home. I pass by two police on their motorcycles. I figured they saw it this time because they were on my ass. One pulls up to my left and asks, "do you have a permit to carry?" I simply said "yes I do sir, do you want me to pull over more so cars can pass?" He agreed.

    Now the other cop comes up on my right with his hand on his gun telling me to keep my hands in the air. I complied. He then put handcuffs on me and told me to dismount the motorcycle. The cop that approached my right side (we'll call him cop #2) asked me, "what don't you understand about conceal and carry in the state of Minnesota?" I then said "the law does not distinguish between open and concealed." He rebutted with "your wrong! It's people like you that ruin it for all permit holders". I don't understand how this is true since the law allows open carry and the gun laws are changning for the better for people who want to practice their second amendment. Afterall, an unexericed right will be a lost right.

    He then said "what makes you think you can have your gun out in the open like that?" I told him "I can do it because the law says I can and i'm no criminal, i'm a law abiding citizen, also a former marine." He then said "not a very smart one". At that point I understood I was going to get no where with this guy. They told me to sit down and I complied. They then called in my permit number and my driver's license info. I could hear cop #2 in the background telling his sergeant, "freakin unbelievable, this guy was riding around with his gun out in the open." His sergeant didn't say anything...

    They get the call back with all clear, good to go, after about 15 minutes. Cop #2 gave me back my license and permit and told me to conceal it next time. I told him "i'm not able to conceal with certain types of attire and until I get a smaller weapon, this is all i've got." He said "then put a shirt over it. Now get out of here!" I said very well, sorry for the trouble officers and I left. Surprisingly they kept my firearm in my holster the whole time while I was handcuffed. Overall things went well and now another cop stands corrected about Minnesota law.

    Cop #1 didn't say much and it seemed so because he understood the laws about open carry but probably didn't want to correct his fellow officer in front of a suspect. What lesson did I learn? That I will continue to open carry when I need to and also conceal when my attire or situation allows, PERIOD!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Oh yeah. I can't believe I forgot to mention this before. Cop number 2 had also said, "Do you realize that when I pulled you over I could of thrown you off your bike and it may have damaged your motorcycle and the city of Minneapolis wouldn't of been liable for any of the damages." I replied "that would seem to me like excessive force" and he said "I wouldn't be". He had told me this right before I was allowed to leave. Anyone have any thoughts on legalities behind this?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    JBT Alert, JBT Alert!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    Oh yeah. I can't believe I forgot to mention this before. Cop number 2 had also said, "Do you realize that when I pulled you over I could of thrown you off your bike and it may have damaged your motorcycle and the city of Minneapolis wouldn't of been liable for any of the damages." I replied "that would seem to me like excessive force" and he said "I wouldn't be". He had told me this right before I was allowed to leave. Anyone have any thoughts on legalities behind this?
    Minnesota is one of the states where a voice recorder is real important if you want to put JBTs in their place.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  11. #11
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    look at me, look at me, i could beat you up, and damage your property because i have a badge- absolutely disgusting.

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    This seems appropriate here...



    Brent, I hope these idiots get get an education they won't forget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by administrator View Post
    Brent,

    I would like to write a Minneapolis Gun Rights Examiner column about your experience and see what we can do about educating the officers involved. Could you email me at John@OpenCarry.org so I could get you my contact info so that we might talk?

    Thanks!


    John
    John I've had an experince quite a bit like this with St. Paul PD.I had thought about talking to the sheriff about educating St Paul PD about Mn carry law. Tell me what you think of this.
    Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you. "Henry Kissinger" A wise man once told me to strive to own one of every type and caliber, and I'm doing my best to comply. JW

  14. #14
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    ....
    Last edited by Brent Evertz; 06-01-2015 at 07:49 PM.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    Well I went back to Lake Calhoun today on my motorcycle. I was open carrying again. I actually got the privilege of seeing our two friends again, cop #1 and #2. Cop #2 definitely saw me because I stared back at his ugly grin as he watched me cross the intersection he was at. They didn't mess with me this time as I was hoping they would so I could get his badge number. Also to say "we're doing this again?"

    I lapped the lake 3 times trying to provoke these guys and I even pulled into the boat launching area where 5 police were on their bicycles. I made sure to go nice and slow and so they could see my gun but they didn't say anything. Now that I know what time cop number 1 and number 2 patrol that lake, I think it would be great to get some guys together who have their permits and open carry there. If anyone wants to let me know. These guys need to understand that we're not afraid of their scare tactics and we will continue to practice our rights. Hopefully they'll just leave us alone and do their real job.
    This is the immature behavior that makes us all look like idiots. Good job. Did you have fun swinging your ego around for everyone to see like a 15 yr old boy trying to grow his first mustache?

    Stop trying to show off your damn gun. Stop trying to provoke ANYONE, let alone law enforcement. That is NOT what open carry is about. That cop was right when he said it's people like you that ruin it for the rest of us. Open carry because it is convenient, comfortable, practical, and because it is your right. If you're open carrying to intentionally provoke a negative response, as you just blatantly admitted, then you have no business carrying a gun.

    I mean, you just admitted on a public forum that you were carrying a gun with the intent of garnering a negative response. Good luck to you when you actually have to defend yourself, and the DA throws this forum up for the jury to see. You'll look like a raging lunatic that was trying to start a fight, and got one.

    This is just down right disappointing.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    i understand where your coming from and I could of used a little rewording there. That cop really disappointed me though. I'm concerned about the police that feel its right to violate our rights. You misunderstood me. That cop had no right to say the things he said let alone cuff me. If he was so threatened by me to cuff me then tell me why he left my handgun in my holster?

    I'm fine with the police as long as they play by the rules just like everyone else! I'm not fine with cops that violate Americans rights especially the ones who fought for those very same rights. His job is to enforce the law so tell me why he didn't enforce it? Your damn right I was hoping he'd pull me over again. Why? So I can get his damn badge number and file a misconduct report against him. Then hopefully his damn captain will do his job by informing the police they can't get away with this crap anymore!

    And if you read my first post you'd see that it wasn't my intention to "show off or provoke". but it just got messy when my 4th amendment was violated! I won't stand by to see dick officers strip away the rights of the people. This country is too great to see it turn to crap!
    Last edited by Brent Evertz; 07-07-2010 at 01:15 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    And if you read my first post you'd see that it wasn't my intention to "show off or provoke".
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    I lapped the lake 3 times trying to provoke these guys

    I'm not worried about your first post, I'm worried about this post. This is a great way to get yourself in major trouble, and look like an idiot while you're at it.

    You don't need to "provoke" the officer to get his badge number. You need to head into the department like an adult, have a sit down with the Chief, and see what ya'll can come up with. The officer made a huge mistake and it needs to be corrected. Whens the last time you made a mistake?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Provoking was the wrong word to use. Obviously it means to do an action to get a result. Now i'm not going to brandish my handgun or anything like that. Then I'd of course be in the wrong. But yes, I will continue to open carry everywhere I go(unless prohibited) and Lake Calhoun is a place I frequently visit. That's something that i want the cops there to realize. That i'm not going to be afraid of what they say. As long as I'm not committing a crime, I will continue to enjoy the activities that I do while I open carry.

    I think that cop made a little something more than just a mistake. He knew what he was doing. He felt he needed to go on a power trip and abuse his authority. Even when I was cleared to leave he still insisted that I "conceal it next time". I've already got a letter written up for the chief by the way. I also have the administrator of this forum contacting the local authorities here to inform them of the incident.

    Have you ever heard of open carry activists gathering together? They do it all the time and its not illegal or stupid. It doesn't make them "raging lunatics". It's done to inform the people that we are in fact law abiding citizens and we will continue to practice the rights given to use by the constitution and we will follow the state's laws. That and to have a good time of course. Picnics are conducted at that very lake I was detained, by people who open carry. And yes people do call the cops. Most of the time the people gathering know that it will produce a negative response but they do it anyways. They do it because it's their right!

    Anytime someone open carries they should know that it will produce a negative response. Going to an area that's known to produce that negative response in a way is just like provoking. Look at the starbucks incident. Many customers wanted them to ban people who openly carried in starbucks. They refused to give in and said they'd continue to follow state laws on the matter. You think people that open carry there don't think for a second that they might "garner a negative response" by just being there?
    Last edited by Brent Evertz; 07-07-2010 at 02:48 PM.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    DreQ, you aren't his DI. Try taking some of your own advice and advise him of his errors in an adult like manner.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by VAopencarry View Post
    DreQ, you aren't his DI. Try taking some of your own advice and advise him of his errors in an adult like manner.
    Lol thanks for that :-). I guess I am being a little harsh.

    Brent, it's not your intentions nor your actions that I was necessarily questioning. More than anything it was the way you described them in this forum. Using words like "provoke", referring to the officer as "ugly", and stating that you hoped you'd be stopped are all negative. Negative actions more often than not result in negative responses. More specifically, this type of attitude could be used as an example of how open carriers are aggressive, sarcastic, insulting, and out looking for trouble. Again, this may not be how you are, or how you meant to portray yourself, but it is definitely one way that your words could be interpreted.

    Figuratively standing your ground by continuing to exercise your rights in the same place that they were previously violated is commendable. For all of us to continue to normalize the act of being equipped to protect ourselves, however, we must do so with a smile on our face. After all, the goal is to be perceived by the general public as harmless. For the haters, anti's, and those that wish to violate our rights, we must strive to "kill them with kindness", as it were, and avoid expressing our more negative emotions, however warranted they may be.

    I open carried for a long time in the state of NC, where a permit to do so is not required. On a regular basis I read about other open carriers in the same state being stopped, questioned, detained, and sometimes even arrested by law enforcement. They described harassment and rights violations. They also expressed their anger and distaste for the people involved in those negative encounters.

    In years of carrying, I only had one negative incident with law enforcement, and even I will admit that I was probably over-stepping my bounds a bit. Regardless, we argued, we glared at each other, we exchanged legal banter, and then we parted ways. I stood nose to nose with 3 police officers and told them what I was doing and why it was legal. I refused to give them my ID so they could not detain me. I was never arrested, assaulted, or charged. I later spoke with the Chief of the department and we all learned some lessons.

    I did all of it with a smile on my face. Not a sarcastic one, mind you...a confident, calm, harmless one. That same smile has allowed me to educate countless Americans about their rights. Open carry for me has truly been an open invitation for people to ask me what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and how they can do it, too. It's been a great experience to say the least.

    I'll get off my soap box, now. As soon as I get my permit to carry here, I'll be more than happy to get together with any fellow open carriers in the area. In the mean time I'll be running around with a goofy smile on my face and no gun to back it up, lol.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreQo View Post
    Lol thanks for that :-). I guess I am being a little harsh.

    Brent, it's not your intentions nor your actions that I was necessarily questioning. More than anything it was the way you described them in this forum. Using words like "provoke", referring to the officer as "ugly", and stating that you hoped you'd be stopped are all negative. Negative actions more often than not result in negative responses. More specifically, this type of attitude could be used as an example of how open carriers are aggressive, sarcastic, insulting, and out looking for trouble. Again, this may not be how you are, or how you meant to portray yourself, but it is definitely one way that your words could be interpreted.

    Figuratively standing your ground by continuing to exercise your rights in the same place that they were previously violated is commendable. For all of us to continue to normalize the act of being equipped to protect ourselves, however, we must do so with a smile on our face. After all, the goal is to be perceived by the general public as harmless. For the haters, anti's, and those that wish to violate our rights, we must strive to "kill them with kindness", as it were, and avoid expressing our more negative emotions, however warranted they may be.

    I open carried for a long time in the state of NC, where a permit to do so is not required. On a regular basis I read about other open carriers in the same state being stopped, questioned, detained, and sometimes even arrested by law enforcement. They described harassment and rights violations. They also expressed their anger and distaste for the people involved in those negative encounters.

    In years of carrying, I only had one negative incident with law enforcement, and even I will admit that I was probably over-stepping my bounds a bit. Regardless, we argued, we glared at each other, we exchanged legal banter, and then we parted ways. I stood nose to nose with 3 police officers and told them what I was doing and why it was legal. I refused to give them my ID so they could not detain me. I was never arrested, assaulted, or charged. I later spoke with the Chief of the department and we all learned some lessons.

    I did all of it with a smile on my face. Not a sarcastic one, mind you...a confident, calm, harmless one. That same smile has allowed me to educate countless Americans about their rights. Open carry for me has truly been an open invitation for people to ask me what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and how they can do it, too. It's been a great experience to say the least.

    I'll get off my soap box, now. As soon as I get my permit to carry here, I'll be more than happy to get together with any fellow open carriers in the area. In the mean time I'll be running around with a goofy smile on my face and no gun to back it up, lol.
    You are right. That day I was letting too much of my frustration out and that is not the way to proceed when it comes to such an important issue. I'm sure anti-gun activists would love nothing more than to use a guy like me for their campaign. Well, they won't get it. I will fight the good fight, you can rest assured.

    Being a former Marine I'm more than qualified to own firearms and I've got my dd-214 to prove my decorations and accomplishments, so that someday heaven forbid I need to use it, I will. I understand I didn't put out the right vibe in my post above. I'm still new to being a civilian gun owner and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about everything, so someday I will be a successful gun-rights activist. It sure was a lot easier in the Marine Corps, they were happy to hand out rifles! HAHA.

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    Oorah ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DreQo View Post
    Oorah ;-)
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Evertz View Post
    You are right. That day I was letting too much of my frustration out and that is not the way to proceed when it comes to such an important issue. I'm sure anti-gun activists would love nothing more than to use a guy like me for their campaign. Well, they won't get it. I will fight the good fight, you can rest assured.

    Being a former Marine I'm more than qualified to own firearms and I've got my dd-214 to prove my decorations and accomplishments, so that someday heaven forbid I need to use it, I will. I understand I didn't put out the right vibe in my post above. I'm still new to being a civilian gun owner and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about everything, so someday I will be a successful gun-rights activist. It sure was a lot easier in the Marine Corps, they were happy to hand out rifles! HAHA.

    Thank you for your service. As a former Marine, you know how important it is to prepare for the coming battle. If you arrange things so the fight occurs on your terms, at the time and place of your choosing, you win. This fight is every bit as important as our other fights to preserve our rights and our way of life. I am sure that you now have the motivation to make sure that we win. We won't win this one with physical battles with the police. We are already winning it by bringing them over to our side. Sometimes they need to be forced over by legal process and training, and a whole lot of them will come over, because they took the same oath to uphold and defend the Constitution that we did.

    I am glad to have you on the right side. Thanks for joining up!

  25. #25
    Regular Member Brent Evertz's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    Thank you for your service. As a former Marine, you know how important it is to prepare for the coming battle. If you arrange things so the fight occurs on your terms, at the time and place of your choosing, you win. This fight is every bit as important as our other fights to preserve our rights and our way of life. I am sure that you now have the motivation to make sure that we win. We won't win this one with physical battles with the police. We are already winning it by bringing them over to our side. Sometimes they need to be forced over by legal process and training, and a whole lot of them will come over, because they took the same oath to uphold and defend the Constitution that we did.

    I am glad to have you on the right side. Thanks for joining up!
    Your very welcome. I did my service with great pleasure and I wouldn't ever change any of it for anything in the world. Your right about everything above. We're making good progress and have won some good battles that protect the right but there are many more to come.

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