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Handcuffed for open carry on motorcycle

USMC1986

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Lol thanks for that :). I guess I am being a little harsh.

Brent, it's not your intentions nor your actions that I was necessarily questioning. More than anything it was the way you described them in this forum. Using words like "provoke", referring to the officer as "ugly", and stating that you hoped you'd be stopped are all negative. Negative actions more often than not result in negative responses. More specifically, this type of attitude could be used as an example of how open carriers are aggressive, sarcastic, insulting, and out looking for trouble. Again, this may not be how you are, or how you meant to portray yourself, but it is definitely one way that your words could be interpreted.

Figuratively standing your ground by continuing to exercise your rights in the same place that they were previously violated is commendable. For all of us to continue to normalize the act of being equipped to protect ourselves, however, we must do so with a smile on our face. After all, the goal is to be perceived by the general public as harmless. For the haters, anti's, and those that wish to violate our rights, we must strive to "kill them with kindness", as it were, and avoid expressing our more negative emotions, however warranted they may be.

I open carried for a long time in the state of NC, where a permit to do so is not required. On a regular basis I read about other open carriers in the same state being stopped, questioned, detained, and sometimes even arrested by law enforcement. They described harassment and rights violations. They also expressed their anger and distaste for the people involved in those negative encounters.

In years of carrying, I only had one negative incident with law enforcement, and even I will admit that I was probably over-stepping my bounds a bit. Regardless, we argued, we glared at each other, we exchanged legal banter, and then we parted ways. I stood nose to nose with 3 police officers and told them what I was doing and why it was legal. I refused to give them my ID so they could not detain me. I was never arrested, assaulted, or charged. I later spoke with the Chief of the department and we all learned some lessons.

I did all of it with a smile on my face. Not a sarcastic one, mind you...a confident, calm, harmless one. That same smile has allowed me to educate countless Americans about their rights. Open carry for me has truly been an open invitation for people to ask me what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and how they can do it, too. It's been a great experience to say the least.

I'll get off my soap box, now. As soon as I get my permit to carry here, I'll be more than happy to get together with any fellow open carriers in the area. In the mean time I'll be running around with a goofy smile on my face and no gun to back it up, lol.

You are right. That day I was letting too much of my frustration out and that is not the way to proceed when it comes to such an important issue. I'm sure anti-gun activists would love nothing more than to use a guy like me for their campaign. Well, they won't get it. I will fight the good fight, you can rest assured.

Being a former Marine I'm more than qualified to own firearms and I've got my dd-214 to prove my decorations and accomplishments, so that someday heaven forbid I need to use it, I will. I understand I didn't put out the right vibe in my post above. I'm still new to being a civilian gun owner and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about everything, so someday I will be a successful gun-rights activist. It sure was a lot easier in the Marine Corps, they were happy to hand out rifles! HAHA.
 

Grapeshot

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Oorah ;-)

smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-010.gif
 

ccwinstructor

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Yuma, Arizona, USA
Preparing the ground so the fight is to your advantage

You are right. That day I was letting too much of my frustration out and that is not the way to proceed when it comes to such an important issue. I'm sure anti-gun activists would love nothing more than to use a guy like me for their campaign. Well, they won't get it. I will fight the good fight, you can rest assured.

Being a former Marine I'm more than qualified to own firearms and I've got my dd-214 to prove my decorations and accomplishments, so that someday heaven forbid I need to use it, I will. I understand I didn't put out the right vibe in my post above. I'm still new to being a civilian gun owner and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about everything, so someday I will be a successful gun-rights activist. It sure was a lot easier in the Marine Corps, they were happy to hand out rifles! HAHA.


Thank you for your service. As a former Marine, you know how important it is to prepare for the coming battle. If you arrange things so the fight occurs on your terms, at the time and place of your choosing, you win. This fight is every bit as important as our other fights to preserve our rights and our way of life. I am sure that you now have the motivation to make sure that we win. We won't win this one with physical battles with the police. We are already winning it by bringing them over to our side. Sometimes they need to be forced over by legal process and training, and a whole lot of them will come over, because they took the same oath to uphold and defend the Constitution that we did.

I am glad to have you on the right side. Thanks for joining up!
 

USMC1986

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Location
USA
Thank you for your service. As a former Marine, you know how important it is to prepare for the coming battle. If you arrange things so the fight occurs on your terms, at the time and place of your choosing, you win. This fight is every bit as important as our other fights to preserve our rights and our way of life. I am sure that you now have the motivation to make sure that we win. We won't win this one with physical battles with the police. We are already winning it by bringing them over to our side. Sometimes they need to be forced over by legal process and training, and a whole lot of them will come over, because they took the same oath to uphold and defend the Constitution that we did.

I am glad to have you on the right side. Thanks for joining up!

Your very welcome. I did my service with great pleasure and I wouldn't ever change any of it for anything in the world. Your right about everything above. We're making good progress and have won some good battles that protect the right but there are many more to come.
 

protias

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I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see you filing an open records request or a complaint against either officer.
 

USMC1986

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I have filed a complaint to the Internal Affairs Unit of the Minneapolis Police Department.
 

USMC1986

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I got a follow-up with the police sergeant from the Internal Affairs Unit within the Minneapolis Police Department today. He knew who the officers were and asked how I'd like to follow up with the complaint. I just suggested a little training on how to better handle that situation and of Minnesota law concerning open carry. He agreed that if they felt so threatened as to handcuff me, then they should of disarmed me too. I don't want to make a big stink about all of this and the sergeant was very cooperative. He told me that he'll inform his too men on how to better tackle that type of situation may they ever come across another legally armed citizen.
 

Grapeshot

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I got a follow-up with the police sergeant from the Internal Affairs Unit within the Minneapolis Police Department today. He knew who the officers were and asked how I'd like to follow up with the complaint. I just suggested a little training on how to better handle that situation and of Minnesota law concerning open carry. He agreed that if they felt so threatened as to handcuff me, then they should of disarmed me too. I don't want to make a big stink about all of this and the sergeant was very cooperative. He told me that he'll inform his too men on how to better tackle that type of situation may they ever come across another legally armed citizen.

I think you just saw that swept under the rug. :(
 

JoeSparky

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I got a follow-up with the police sergeant from the Internal Affairs Unit within the Minneapolis Police Department today. He knew who the officers were and asked how I'd like to follow up with the complaint. I just suggested a little training on how to better handle that situation and of Minnesota law concerning open carry. He agreed that if they felt so threatened as to handcuff me, then they should of disarmed me too. I don't want to make a big stink about all of this and the sergeant was very cooperative. He told me that he'll inform his too men on how to better tackle that type of situation may they ever come across another legally armed citizen.

" He agreed that if they felt so threatened as to handcuff me, then they should of disarmed me too."

So, the next time they will not only handcuff you but disarm you as well? And this is improvement?
 

USMC1986

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" He agreed that if they felt so threatened as to handcuff me, then they should of disarmed me too."

So, the next time they will not only handcuff you but disarm you as well? And this is improvement?

He agreed that they were in the wrong by doing that. Not that they will do both next time. Cops usually don't handcuff in those situations, they usually disarm the person. If they proceed to handcuff then they shouldn't leave the handgun holstered. The two clearly contradict each other. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is the right way but I personally don't have a problem if the cop feels he needs to disarm me prior to doing his check. If you were a cop and had a family what would you do? I'd disarm... They're not mind readers and their job is a dangerous one. They clearly don't know your intentions until they properly check you out, ask for I.D. and your permit to carry and if that means they need to disarm before they proceed, then so be it.
 

protias

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He agreed that they were in the wrong by doing that. Not that they will do both next time. Cops usually don't handcuff in those situations, they usually disarm the person. If they proceed to handcuff then they shouldn't leave the handgun holstered. The two clearly contradict each other. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is the right way but I personally don't have a problem if the cop feels he needs to disarm me prior to doing his check. If you were a cop and had a family what would you do? I'd disarm... They're not mind readers and their job is a dangerous one. They clearly don't know your intentions until they properly check you out, ask for I.D. and your permit to carry and if that means they need to disarm before they proceed, then so be it.

Devil's Advocate

How do you know those are real police? Do you feel safe? Maybe they should disarm because you don't feel safe?

/Devil's Advocate
 

JoeSparky

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Personally, I think, I would look at the totality of the situation and if the gun carrier was OPENLY carrying and NOT acting in a manner that would lead a LEO to have RAS that a crime was just committed by, was being committed by, or going to be immediately committed by the gun carrier that said gun carrier should be COMPLETELY LEFT ALONE BY THE LEO's.

See the recent case in NewMexico (St John vs alamogordo, I think) not to mention the most recent McDonald vs Chicago at the US SUPREME COURT.
 

Daddyo

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He agreed that they were in the wrong by doing that. Not that they will do both next time. Cops usually don't handcuff in those situations, they usually disarm the person. If they proceed to handcuff then they shouldn't leave the handgun holstered. The two clearly contradict each other. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is the right way but I personally don't have a problem if the cop feels he needs to disarm me prior to doing his check. If you were a cop and had a family what would you do? I'd disarm... They're not mind readers and their job is a dangerous one. They clearly don't know your intentions until they properly check you out, ask for I.D. and your permit to carry and if that means they need to disarm before they proceed, then so be it.

This is a big distinction between your former job and that of a police officer. As a Marine, you had rules of engagement to follow, but I would imagine they essentially boiled down to "assume everyone is trying to kill you". That's quite reasonable in a combat zone. However, Lake Calhoun isn't The Sandbox. You are innocent until proven guilty, and they must assume your intentions are pure unless they have definite reasons to suspect otherwise. A gun in a holster is not reason to suspect one of foul play anymore than possession of car keys is valid suspicion of speeding. Unless it was to say "nice bike" or "cool Walther", they had no reason to stop you much less put you in cuffs.

BTW- Thanks for your service. One of my great regrets in life was not going into the military. As to a get together, totally up for that if I'm in town.
 
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USMC1986

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Devil's Advocate

How do you know those are real police? Do you feel safe? Maybe they should disarm because you don't feel safe?

/Devil's Advocate

This can happen regardless if your carrying or not. What do you do then? If a cop pulls you over for speeding, what are you doing to do? How do you know he's a cop? This has happened before and the only thing you really can do is call in to make sure he is in fact real. This will be quite difficult when you've got a cop with his hand on his gun telling you to keep your hands in the air. You going to go in your pocket and draw out your cell phone? I sure hope not. There are no easy answer and you just have to act in good faith.
 

USMC1986

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Personally, I think, I would look at the totality of the situation and if the gun carrier was OPENLY carrying and NOT acting in a manner that would lead a LEO to have RAS that a crime was just committed by, was being committed by, or going to be immediately committed by the gun carrier that said gun carrier should be COMPLETELY LEFT ALONE BY THE LEO's.

See the recent case in NewMexico (St John vs alamogordo, I think) not to mention the most recent McDonald vs Chicago at the US SUPREME COURT.

Usually the problem is you get a person who called the police saying man with a gun! They usually can't keep their cool about themselves because they're scared. The officer in route only gets 2 things from the dispatcher, your location and what your wearing. They don't know if they might be stepping into a soon to be robbery.

I understand where everyone is coming from on wanting to be left alone by LEO's for open carrying. I want that same thing but I just don't see it ever happening. You might get the occasional LEO that will leave you alone but there are too many LEO's that think different or may have been in certain dangerous situations, where they just don't feel comfortable leaving you alone until they make sure you're legal to carry.

Also they might be wanting to make sure your not under the influence of any controlled substances. In Mn, they have the right to arrest if they smell a little bit of alcohol. You can't have your cake and eat it too and I think that's something that we'll have to just coop with. With gun violence on the rise, you'll just have to expect for cops to be more on edge.
 

Grapeshot

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Usually the problem is you get a person who called the police saying man with a gun! They usually can't keep their cool about themselves because they're scared. The officer in route only gets 2 things from the dispatcher, your location and what your wearing. They don't know if they might be stepping into a soon to be robbery.

I understand where everyone is coming from on wanting to be left alone by LEO's for open carrying. I want that same thing but I just don't see it ever happening. You might get the occasional LEO that will leave you alone but there are too many LEO's that think different or may have been in certain dangerous situations, where they just don't feel comfortable leaving you alone until they make sure you're legal to carry.

Also they might be wanting to make sure your not under the influence of any controlled substances. In Mn, they have the right to arrest if they smell a little bit of alcohol. You can't have your cake and eat it too and I think that's something that we'll have to just coop with. With gun violence on the rise, you'll just have to expect for cops to be more on edge.

The level of LEO understanding and compliance is in direct relationship with the laws and the citizen's insistence on adherence to them.

In Va. it is very rare to have problems interacting with LEO's. Not disrespectfully said, but I am not concerned with their level of comfort - they'll get over it - and insofar as "making sure I am legal" w/o RAS - good luck.

Where did you get the idea that gun violence was on the rise? The Chicago or NYC papers? Quite to the contrary, especially where legal citizens are defensively armed.

http://www.gunreports.com/news/handguns/FBI-Firearms-Violent-Crime-Statistics_807-1.html

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm

http://www.dklawoffice.com/pubs_bad_math_on_gun_violence.html

 

USMC1986

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The level of LEO understanding and compliance is in direct relationship with the laws and the citizen's insistence on adherence to them.

In Va. it is very rare to have problems interacting with LEO's. Not disrespectfully said, but I am not concerned with their level of comfort - they'll get over it - and insofar as "making sure I am legal" w/o RAS - good luck.

Where did you get the idea that gun violence was on the rise? The Chicago or NYC papers? Quite to the contrary, especially where legal citizens are defensively armed.

http://www.gunreports.com/news/handguns/FBI-Firearms-Violent-Crime-Statistics_807-1.html

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm

http://www.dklawoffice.com/pubs_bad_math_on_gun_violence.html


I only said gun violence is on the rise because it is true here in Mn (at least for the time being). I'm sure violence is down in other cities and people can say it's because of their carry laws. Here in Minneapolis though the murder rate has doubled as that of all of last year. Its only July right now... I should of been more specific when I said that. Now I know that the past few years haven't been nearly as bad as the crime rates of the 90's.

Believe me, there is nothing more I want than for people to be left alone by LEO's as I said before. I just don't foresee that happening anytime soon.
 

Grapeshot

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I only said gun violence is on the rise because it is true here in Mn (at least for the time being). I'm sure violence is down in other cities and people can say it's because of their carry laws. Here in Minneapolis though the murder rate has doubled as that of all of last year. Its only July right now... I should of been more specific when I said that. Now I know that the past few years haven't been nearly as bad as the crime rates of the 90's.

Believe me, there is nothing more I want than for people to be left alone by LEO's as I said before. I just don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

You may indeed be experiencing a temporary local upswing or living in a pocket. Overall though Minnesota is below the national averages in nearly all categories and at the lowest level in 23 years.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mn/crime/

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mn/crime/

You enjoy full state preemption and licensed OC, so if there is a problem I suspect that an increased level of activism, education and good PR would go a long way to improving the situation.
 

USMC1986

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You may indeed be experiencing a temporary local upswing or living in a pocket. Overall though Minnesota is below the national averages in nearly all categories and at the lowest level in 23 years.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mn/crime/

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mn/crime/

You enjoy full state preemption and licensed OC, so if there is a problem I suspect that an increased level of activism, education and good PR would go a long way to improving the situation.

I don't argue with that. That's why I open carry =)
 
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