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Thread: Anyone?

  1. #1
    Regular Member ItTakesAWolf's Avatar
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    Anyone?

    I was carrying my good ol colt from my car to a buddy's house, it was unloaded (completely) in a hard case and the case was in a duffel bag along with a couple of unopened boxes of .45, a holster, some ear muffs a small cleaning kit and a bottle of water.

    got me and a friend thinking....

    that is technically a "concealed" weapon. so for someone without a ccw what makes it ok or not? the fact that its unloaded? because in the state of Colorado "unloaded" just means no round in the chamber...does it need to be totally away from ammo? does it by law need to be in a case when its concealed from view? is it illegal to carry a cased and unloaded pistol in a duffel bag? where is the line drawn?

    we started talking and talking about it and where puzzled...does a CCW allow you to carry a fully >>> loaded<<< concealed weapon? if its concealed with out a permit in any way, does it only need to be unloaded by definition of state law?

    IM ABSOLUTELY NOT INTERESTED IN DOING THIS but does it mean that in Colorado if the gun doesn't have a round in the chamber it can be concealed legally?
    OH NO!!! I cant seem to think of anything "funny" and/or "wise" to put in my forum signature...NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! lol

  2. #2
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    I think, (IANAL) that if you have a gun unloaded, in a case, and then in something such as a backpack, you should be good to go. Otherwise, people who have a gun in their suitcase while checking in at an airport would be violating the CCW laws..... Carrying an unloaded gun, on your hip (or anywhere on your person) would constitute carrying a concealed weapon.

    Yes, a CCW permit allows you to carry a loaded concealed weapon just about anywhere.

    Colorado does have exemptions though (please check for yourself, IANAL)... it is legal to carry a loaded handgun anywhere in your car, concealed or otherwise, without a permit, and it is legal to carry a concealed handgun while hunting, without a permit.

  3. #3
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    It's pretty simple. If you are on Your private property; you may carry in any fashion you see fit. In this way- you may case your firearm and carry it from your home to your vehicle- without needing a CHP. Anyone else can allow you to carry, concealed, on their own private property without a CHP. Public property- you still need a CHP to carry concealed. For example, if you parked your car on a city side street and walked 2 blocks to the firearms store- you purchase a new firearm and it's boxed up. You have to get back to your car- 2 blocks down- but have No CHP... What do you do? In this case you would Have to open carry the pistol to your car. If you were in Denver- you would be committing a crime without a CHP in this scenario. If you purchase a firearm from a store and you parked on the store property- which is private- you can go ahead and case the firearm and take it to your car as long as you did not leave the private property. If the property is leased by the firearms dealer- you would technically need permission to carry concealed from the real property owner- not just a business whom is leasing the property.

    Thoughts?

  4. #4
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    Nice to the point post, CS.

    CS is pretty on the money. The thing to factor is the likelihood of prosecution. Take the 2 block walk from the gun store scenario. You put your purchases in a backpack and go back to your car. There aren't roving bands of police with ultrasound viewers watching people (yet). There aren't great odds a LEO will stop and randomly search you.

    Yes, you're probably technically breaking the law. But with some of the big net laws, it's hard to do anything in two blocks without breaking the law. Are you jaywalking in the middle of the block, walking your dog with a 7 foot leash rather than a 6 foot, did you spit into the gutter on your way, etc. etc.

    Now, if you get in a fight along the way when a thug shoves you, you get hit by a car running a red light, a crazy woman starts screaming that you took her purse, and a LEO has RAS to search your backpack, then he would be within the law to charge you. If you really were just minding your own business and just trying to get to your car with no intent to harm, the LEO or judge may just wag their finger at you and tell you technically you were breaking the law. Or the LEO may be uninterested in the paperwork for a law not intended to catch people like you. Calculate your own risks.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    When purchasing a gun, there is implied permission to carry concealed on store property, and that includes the parking lot. "Real" ownership is no more necessary than it is for someone renting a home or an apartment, as the lessee enjoys the same property rights and conveyance of rights and privaleges to guests as does the actual owner (save for transferrence of ownership, modifications, etc.).

    Thus, yes, you can carry the firearm in its case out of the store and to your car, provided your vehicle is parked in either the store's parking lot, or a communal parking lot used by many stores (such as in a strip mall).

    If you parked down the street, however, it's a different ballgame, and your firearm is now technicall concealed.

    Best bet is to either:

    1) make the purchase, drive up to the front of the store, retrieve the firearm, deposit it in your vehicle and drive off

    2) buy a holster, some ammo, load it, and wear it out of the store and to your vehicle

    3) apply for and wait for your CHP then do as you please
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Lightbulb

    When I said Technically you will have to get the permission of the property owner- I meant it. You can get permission from the controller, whom is a renter, but ultimately the property owner needs to be fully informed of any concealed carry. You said it's just like a house, right? Well think about this-

    You rent from John M.
    You have your friend Mark C. come over to watch the game.
    You let Mark C. concealed carry.
    John M. stops by the place to repair the sink.

    Do you legally have to tell John M. that Mark C. is concealing a pistol?

    Yes you do. It's legally and lawfully John M.'s household and to not inform him is a violation of concealed carry laws and private property laws. You may be a "controller" but you are not the owner.
    Last edited by cscitney87; 07-09-2010 at 11:44 AM.

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    Further more- "Renter's Rights" clearly does not preempt the property owners lawful ability to effectively ban the renter from owning or carrying firearms in any way on the property of the owner. Remember- Private Property rights trumps the CHP. Concealed, even with a permit, won't help you here.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cscitney87 View Post
    You rent from John M.
    You have your friend Mark C. come over to watch the game.
    You let Mark C. concealed carry.
    John M. stops by the place to repair the sink.

    Do you legally have to tell John M. that Mark C. is concealing a pistol?

    Yes you do. It's legally and lawfully John M.'s household and to not inform him is a violation of concealed carry laws and private property laws. You may be a "controller" but you are not the owner.
    Please cite the statute that gives you a duty to inform a property holder that you're concealing a weapon.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamite Rabbit View Post
    Please cite the statute that gives you a duty to inform a property holder that you're concealing a weapon.
    Lmao! If you feel it just and lawful to lie to someone in their own home.. So be it.

    First off... Your CHP is for concealing in the public domain. You may conceal on private property- only until asked to leave. If you are asked- do you have a handgun? You may choose not to answer and will suffer the consequences of silence.

    Are you saying.. "What if the landlord doesn't ask... do I have to tell him?" If he doesn't ask- he's not worried about it. There's no threat. If he was worried about it- he would ask.

    Simply... if the landlord Does Not Want handguns on the property- be it concealed or otherwise- anybody on that private property must obey, except law enforcement.

    How this works in the real world is... You are on someone private property (in their store or home) and you are Never asked about concealing a pistol- thus nobody will know you are concealing a pistol- and nobody cares to know. You don't inform because there's no reason to.

    If you are asked by the owner- if you have a concealed handgun- May you lie to the property owner while on the property owners property?
    Last edited by cscitney87; 07-09-2010 at 01:46 PM.

  10. #10
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    You just made my case. No, I wouldn't lie, and I would leave if asked. I certainly wouldn't volunteer the information, any more than I would if I were carrying in a private business.

    Your assumption that "if he doesn't ask he's not worried about it" is a real stretch.

  11. #11
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    As for citing the "law"

    The Concealed Handgun laws CLEARLY state that the right of the permit holder is not Above and Beyond the ultimate right of the Private Property owner.

    "NOTHING IN THIS PART 2 SHALL BE CONSTRUED TO LIMIT,
    RESTRICT, OR PROHIBIT IN ANY MANNER THE EXISTING RIGHTS OF A PRIVATE
    PROPERTY OWNER, PRIVATE TENANT, PRIVATE EMPLOYER, OR PRIVATE
    BUSINESS ENTITY."


    Like I said before.. If you think it's "right" or lawful to misinform or lie to a private property owner.. So be it. That's on you.

  12. #12
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    "Your assumption that "if he doesn't ask he's not worried about it" is a real stretch. "

    Case in point. Just because the owner doesn't ask.. doesn't mean he doesn't want to know who, in his house, has a concealed pistol.

    Duh. Thanks for making My point.

  13. #13
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    You don't act very rational about issues presented here, Rabbit.

    If you had a few buddies over for a pizza and football game.. You wouldn't want to know who is concealed a pistol in your own home? You wouldn't want them to volunteer this information to you? While in your own home- you would just rather "wonder" or have to ask specifically Knowing you may not even get a straight answer?

  14. #14
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    You can't help yourself, can you? What is it that makes you so condescending?

    I said clearly that I wouldn't lie, and I wouldn't volunteer the information.

    No, I wouldn't ask if someone has a concealed weapon. Seems like a strange idea to me.

  15. #15
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    Right I'm saying you're morally implicating yourself. You're entering somebody's House or Home with a concealed weapon and not telling them. If that's "right" and proper where you come from.. fine.. but where I grew up there is a level of respect that demands openness and honesty.

    You would only Not tell somebody because you think they would tell you not to bring it in the home.. which is sneaky in the first place because you're sneaking it into somebody's Home! If you can't be that up front and honest with someone in their own home.. maybe you don't belong there.

    Or maybe that's just how you "roll" with your buddies.. Clam up and only speak when spoken to.

  16. #16
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    "Don't ask Don't tell" is not appropriate for handling the carrying of a deadly weapon in somebody's home. We're not talking about an innocent sexual preference- this is a deadly weapon we're talking about. You have the ability to murder, justified or not. It's only fit and proper to reveal this information to somebody you care about, respect, and love enough to enjoy their home and furnishings.

  17. #17
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    Further more...

    "September 26th, 2006, 11:33 PM
    darkvibe
    Senior Member

    I ask permission. Her in NY it's against the law to carry in a private residence without permission of the homeowner. I doubt anyone would ever know if i did carry without asking but I do pretty much everything by the book. I'm not going to lose my permit because of something dumb like that. If they say no, I don't go there."


    That is from a thread here http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-others-3.html

    Called "Respecting The Home of Others"

    Sums things up well.. Lawful or otherwise.

  18. #18
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    Just as an FYI, my purposes for being on this board are to learn from others' experiences, to network with pro-2Aers and gun owners, and to support carrying as a means to deter crime.

    How about you, CS? You're a self-admitted troll. You've stated your purpose is to create "conversation" that is not the same old broken record. The ridiculous scenarios you post are not intended to build knowledge, since you are not asking for facts. You think you know it all and have a great habit of giving out bad advice to newbies that will get them arrested or killed. For what? Do you REALLY have nothing better to do with your life? You are not here to support other people. You're here to hear yourself talk and troll people into "stimulating" your need to see more words on the screen. Is this how you cyber? Trolling people into talking gun to you?

    It's also quite clear that treating others with respect is not on your list of reasons to be here. You're doing the OC community a great disservice not only for the fallacious reasoning and advice you post, but because you're discouraging OC gatherings lest you to show up and give the rest of us a bad name.

    Now, what in Hades name happened to you in this thread? This is ridiculous even for you. Was my compliment on not being convuluted and rambling just too much to take? Or was it people letting you get away with the one "technically" hypothesis you were diddling yourself with that you decided to run with? I know trolling can be addictive, but, Dude, get some help.

    You said: "and to not inform him is a violation of concealed carry laws and private property laws". You said "law". You said "not inform him". You didn't say the moral implications of lying when asked. You said LAW about duty to INFORM. Rabbit challenged you to cite the law and you derail into ad hominem attacks on his character calling him a liar.

    With the dishonorable way you handle yourself on this board, you have the gall to put words in Rabbit's mouth in an attempt to impugn his honor?

    And then you cite a vague reference to a NEW YORK law?

    If you want to have a conversation about the ethics of CC in someone's home without their knowledge, great. That could be an interesting topic. But declaring it a LAW because you can make some mental gymnastics to interpret it that way but with a largely indefensible legal argument because you have a moral objection doesn't make it so. That's the kind of crap schizophrenics with delusions of grandeur do. Which could get one adjudicated against posessing a firearm, so I'd keep it to a minimum if I were you.

    Either way, pretty please, with sugar on top. Grow up, get a life, or at least treat other board members with respect.

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    What in the Hell kind of scenario do you find yourself in? What world do you live on where my scenarios are alien to the average man? I'm talking about A person carrying a pistol, concealed- entering somebody's house- and not informing them you have a deadly weapon in their home- for the respect. It's for the respect of it. You need to respect somebody enough not to HIDE your pistol from them in THEIR OWN HOME. Get that through your head, buddy.

    You would only concealed your pistol to HIDE it anyway. Otherwise you would carry openly into this persons house and they would obviously not need informing. So when you are concealing into someone's house- you are either doing so out of comfort- or doing so to HIDE the pistol from the home owner in the first place.

    How horrible of a friendship do we have if we can't acknowledge whether or not we are carrying a deadly weapon into each others home?

    Why not just Open Carry (where possible- and we are talking about private property) and this is a non-issue anyway!

  20. #20
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    On top of all that- When you are on Private Property- You will leave when directed to do so. If the home owner tells you to take a blue **** or get out of the house- you gotta leave. Your bill of rights isn't going to change the homeowners mind.

    And again, If we are talking about concealing your pistol on a rented property- do you have to inform the property owner when you are concealing on their real property? Take a stab at what my answer is.

  21. #21
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    Yeah of course I'm always wrong. I'm always the "troll." Because that's cool.... "Hey we don't agree so you're a troll."

    Opinions are like ass holes, everyone's got one.

    But let me guess.. Your opinion is the only right one.. anything else "is going to get someone arrested."

  22. #22
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    Wow, this thread is ridiculous. There is NO law requiring someone who is CCing to inform a private property owner that he or she is carrying. End of story. Whether or not one ought to inform a home owner is another question entirely.

  23. #23
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    " Whether or not one ought to inform a home owner is another question entirely."

    Although not a Colorado law requiring such- other States have such laws. New York is one of them.

    And it's not another question entirely. It's extremely relevant. We've established where and when you can purchase a firearm and carry it to your car. We've established that you may carry cased/concealed to and from house and car on private property.

    We are discussing whether or not a property owner is duly and lawfully entitled to know if a guest is carrying a concealed pistol.

    We are establishing that we would only conceal to HIDE the pistol- otherwise, of course, we would Open Carry. ... Hello.. OCDO.. Open Carry.. Dot Org.

    So if you are HIDING your pistol from the property owner.. what does that say about you?

  24. #24
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    Like I said- if you are in the public domain- that's a different situation and of course your CHP is relevant.

    Your CHP is not relevant on private property that is not in the public domain. Here's an example-

    Safeway or King Soopers are private property- but in the public domain- and your CHP is required to carry there. Even though it's private property- your CHP is required because the privately owned and operated business is in the public domain.

    If you are in the private domain and on private property- somebody's HOME- you are subject to Private property rights of the home owner. Or would you just lie if it ever came up? "Don't Ask Don't Tell" right? Right.....

    Look if you are never asked- then you will never tell. Is that really appropriate behavior from an adult? An adult with nothing to hide? Why not Open Carry then?

  25. #25
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    I will put this one last way.

    The property owner says to you and your friends, "I don't want any guns in my home."

    Later in the evening- a police officer is called to the scene of your home to break up a fight.

    The police discover concealed weapons on several guests- and asks the property owner if the concealed weapons were known about. These guests had no Concealed Handgun Permits, regardless.

    The property owner says, "I told them all earlier that I didn't want any guns in my home."

    Guess who's going to jail?


    Do you have to tell the property owner that you're hiding a pistol? Do you really want to decide not to? Do you want to hide a pistol from somebody whom trusts you into their home and invites you to drink their drink and eat their food?

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