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Thread: WCI VP Sounds off about "Wild West" Editorial.

  1. #1
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc.'s Avatar
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    WCI VP Sounds off about "Wild West" Editorial.

    Here is the original editorial from the La Crosse Tribune

    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/opin...cc4c002e0.html

    Here is my response

    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/opin...cc4c002e0.html
    Hubert Hoffman, Vice President
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
    P.O. Box 270403
    Milwaukee, WI. 53227
    Hubert@wisconsincarry.org
    608-792-0669
    http://www.wisconsincarry.org
    Disclaimer: Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    It is rather ironic that the Police Chief tries to make Fox sound like a nut case when in fact the chief is the one sounding like a nut case.

    I have not yet seen any comments by the Jackson County Sheriff on this issue.

  3. #3
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    I read the responses to that article. Not surprisingly someone stated that police officers receive "tons of specialized" firearms training which magically transforms them into that small subset of people who are "qualified" to be entrusted to carry a gun. I consider the "tons of training" by police officers to be a myth with no basis in fact.

    I believe a new police recruits in Wisconsin are required to receive at total of ~48 hours of firearms instruction. This includes everything from "this is your gun, take it out of the box" up to the final qualification. Probably some of those 48 hours include the "What y'all have here is a Remington 870 pump action shotgun...." lesson.

    Thereafter a typical department will require an annual qualification shoot. I recently read that the average U.S. LEO shoots well under 100 rounds annually for annual certification. I don't consider that "tons of specialized" training. I would expect only police firearms instructors, members of a SWAT or Emergency Response Team, and a very small number of highly motivated LEO receive significantly more training. And the majority of those "highly motivated" LEO's will already be their instructors and SWAT members.

  4. #4
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    Angry Police rampage could be averted with a few more hours of training!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I read the responses to that article. Not surprisingly someone stated that police officers receive "tons of specialized" firearms training which magically transforms them into that small subset of people who are "qualified" to be entrusted to carry a gun. I consider the "tons of training" by police officers to be a myth with no basis in fact.

    I believe a new police recruits in Wisconsin are required to receive at total of ~48 hours of firearms instruction. This includes everything from "this is your gun, take it out of the box" up to the final qualification. Probably some of those 48 hours include the "What y'all have here is a Remington 870 pump action shotgun...." lesson.

    Thereafter a typical department will require an annual qualification shoot. I recently read that the average U.S. LEO shoots well under 100 rounds annually for annual certification. I don't consider that "tons of specialized" training. I would expect only police firearms instructors, members of a SWAT or Emergency Response Team, and a very small number of highly motivated LEO receive significantly more training. And the majority of those "highly motivated" LEO's will already be their instructors and SWAT members.
    I seem to remember a rouge WI police officer that went on a shooting spree and killed three people I believe?

    Obviously a few dozen more hours of training and this could have been averted!

  5. #5
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    I added this:


    Thank you Hubert, for a lucent and prescient comment on Black River Falls Police Chief Don Gilberg's hyperbole filled, fear mongering missive. Perhaps Chief Gilberg is fearful of change. Perhaps he just does not trust his fellow citizens. Law abiding, honest, caring citizens are not criminals. The Chief clearly is having great difficulty discerning the difference. His constituents should be very concerned about this at election time.

    The SCOTUS and Jackson County's courageous DA have implicit trust in the good folk of thier county. They have made it plain, what they think. I believe has clarified his view as well. ,Chief Gilberg prefers sheep, which are easy to herd as apposed to free men and women capable of making the important decision to defend themselves.

    When seconds count Chief Gilberg; or any cop for that matter, is minutes away. Self defense is a right even the lowliest of creatures understand yet the Chief denies this and is fear mongering.

    I always wonder what prompts this type of fear mongering, particularly in the face of overwhelming evidence to the exact opposite. Vermont, Alaska and now Arizona have constitutional carry. That is carry without any expensive, unwieldy bureaucracy. In other words, unreasonable cost to you.

    Generally speaking, this type of behavior is used to advance a certain political agenda, frighten citizens and influence their opinions and actions. Particularly at the polls.

    Here's a real shocker, even in the wild west, it is not like the Wild West unless you are on the border with Mexico and are fighting for your life and property. The Chief's assertions just are not true. He is simply regurgitating socialist mantra from anti-2nd Amendment, anti-gun, anti-rights orgs like Handgun Control Inc. etc. They all have one thing in common. Fear mongering, spewing , lies, damn lies and half truths about the facts.

    Truth is, if you don't trust your neighbor, fellow citizen, with a gun, maybe we should be wondering about you. The indisputable fact is that where guns are not restricted, violent crime of all types is dramatically reduced. Shocker there.

    Chief, with elections, coming up, I feel obligated to let you know that you may have hitched your re-election chances to the wrong wagon. Fact is, free people are tired of oppressive, liberal policies that either hurt us financially or physically. “We The People” can take care of ourselves, thank you.

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    Rogue cop Tyler Peterson, 20 years old

    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    I seem to remember a rouge WI police officer that went on a shooting spree and killed three people I believe?...
    Rogue Tyler Peterson, Crandon, WI, 07 Oct 2007 He was 20 years old.

  7. #7
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    Jackson Sheriff Comment

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    It is rather ironic that the Police Chief tries to make Fox sound like a nut case when in fact the chief is the one sounding like a nut case.

    I have not yet seen any comments by the Jackson County Sheriff on this issue.
    The sheriff's comment is included in the article at this link. Not as wild as the chief but still will arrest on current statutes.

    http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/97715249.html

  8. #8
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhancock View Post
    The sheriff's comment is included in the article at this link. Not as wild as the chief but still will arrest on current statutes.

    http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/97715249.html

    The article says:

    Gilberg says his officers will also continue to arrest people for gun violations, saying “in short, leave your guns at the city line or lose them and pay fines ranging from $250 to $500 per offense.”
    Does Black River Falls have an ordinance against OC?

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    “Right now, the state laws are just that. They're still there, our ordinances are still there and we have to enforce them. That's what we took the oath for," Waldera says.

    I thought they took the oath to uphold the Constitution of the State of Wisconsin and the United States.

    I guess the sheriff of Jackson County and the BRF Police Chief take different oaths then all of the other LEO in this country.

  10. #10
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    “Right now, the state laws are just that. They're still there, our ordinances are still there and we have to enforce them. That's what we took the oath for," Waldera says.

    I thought they took the oath to uphold the Constitution of the State of Wisconsin and the United States.

    I guess the sheriff of Jackson County and the BRF Police Chief take different oaths then all of the other LEO in this country.

    I was at the Elkhorn city council meeting and they were swearing in a new alderman. I listened to the oath and all it said was the constitution of the US and WI. I don't remember anything about the laws themselves.

  11. #11
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    No one else reads Wisc. Stats. Chapter 19

    No one else reads Wisc. Stats. Chapter 19, even here, why expect others to do so?

    SUBCHAPTER I
    OFFICIAL OATHS AND BONDS
    19.01 Oaths and bonds. (1) FORM OF OATH. Every official
    oath required by article IV, section 28, of the constitution or by any
    statute shall be in writing, subscribed and sworn to and except as
    provided otherwise by s. 757.02 and SCR 40.15, shall be in substantially
    the following form:
    STATE OF WISCONSIN,
    County of ....
    I, the undersigned, who have been elected (or appointed) to the
    office of ...., but have not yet entered upon the duties thereof,
    swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the United
    States and the constitution of the state of Wisconsin, and will faithfully
    discharge the duties of said office to the best of my ability.
    So help me God.
    .... ....,
    Subscribed and sworn to before me this .... day of ...., .... (year)
    ....(Signature)....,
    (1m) FORM OF ORAL OATH. If it is desired to administer the
    official oath orally in addition to the written oath prescribed
    above, it shall be in substantially the following form:
    I, ...., swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the
    United States and the constitution of the state of Wisconsin, and
    will faithfully and impartially discharge the duties of the office of
    .... to the best of my ability. So help me God.
    (2) FORM OF BOND. (a) Every official bond required of any
    public officer shall be in substantially the following form:
    We, the undersigned, jointly and severally, undertake and agree
    that ...., who has been elected (or appointed) to the office of ....,
    will faithfully discharge the duties of the office according to law,
    and will pay to the parties entitled to receive the same, such damages,
    not exceeding in the aggregate .... dollars, as may be suffered
    by them in consequence of the failure of .... to discharge the duties
    of the office.
    Dated ...., .... (year)

    (4) WHERE FILED. (a) Official oaths and bonds of the following
    public officials shall be filed in the office of the secretary of
    state:
    1. All members and officers of the legislature.
    2. The governor.
    3. The lieutenant governor.
    4. The state superintendent.
    5. The justices, reporter and clerk of the supreme court.
    6. The judges of the court of appeals.
    7. The judges and reporters of the circuit courts.
    8. All notaries public.
    9. Every officer, except the secretary of state, state treasurer,
    district attorney and attorney general, whose compensation is paid
    in whole or in part out of the state treasury, including every member
    or appointee of a board or commission whose compensation
    is so paid.
    10. Every deputy or assistant of an officer who files with the
    secretary of state.
    (b) Official oaths and bonds of the following public officials
    shall be filed in the office of the governor:
    1. The secretary of state.
    2. The state treasurer.
    3. The attorney general.
    (bn) Official oaths and bonds of all district attorneys shall be
    filed with the secretary of administration.

    (c) Official oaths and bonds of the following public officials
    shall be filed in the office of the clerk of the circuit court for any
    county in which the official serves:
    1. All circuit and supplemental court commissioners.
    3. All municipal judges.
    4. All judges or judicial officers, not included in subds. 1. and
    3., elected or appointed for that county, or whose jurisdiction is
    limited to that county.
    (d) Official oaths and bonds of all elected or appointed county
    officers, other than those enumerated in par. (c), and of all officers
    whose compensation is paid out of the county treasury shall be
    filed in the office of the county clerk of any county in which the
    officer serves.
    (dm) Official oaths and bonds of members of the governing
    board, and the superintendent and other officers of any joint
    county school, county hospital, county sanatorium, county asylum
    or other joint county institution shall be filed in the office of
    the county clerk of the county in which the buildings of the institution
    that the official serves are located.
    (e) Official oaths and bonds of all elected or appointed town
    officers shall be filed in the office of the town clerk for the town
    in which the officer serves, except that oaths and bonds of town
    clerks shall be filed in the office of the town treasurer.
    (f) Official oaths and bonds of all elected or appointed city officers
    shall be filed in the office of the city clerk for the city in which
    the officer serves, except that oaths and bonds of city clerks shall
    be filed in the office of the city treasurer.
    (g) Official oaths and bonds of all elected or appointed village
    officers shall be filed in the office of the village clerk for the village
    in which the officer serves, except that oaths and bonds of village
    clerks shall be filed in the office of the village treasurer.
    (h) The official oath and bond of any officer of a school district
    or of an incorporated school board shall be filed with the clerk of
    the school district or the clerk of the incorporated school board for
    or on which the official serves.
    (j) Official oaths and bonds of the members of a technical college
    district shall be filed with the secretary for the technical college
    district for which the member serves
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 07-07-2010 at 01:33 PM.

  12. #12
    McX
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    if this is the wild west, and since the powers that be banned smoking in buildings- unenforceable here, do i have to put out spit-toons?

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    I imagine I will be type classd as a racist after this post. I will state thaat I am not a racist, facts are facts. This information I am about to place comes from the June 2010 release of crime statisticsin Wisconsn during year 2009. it's link has already been posted on this forum under the link Crime rate is down in Wisconsin---.

    Obviously Police Chief Gilbert grew up watching too many B westerns and listening to anti-gun dribble. The murder rate by firearms in the whole United States during the "Wild West days" was around 40 to 50 per year. Far fewer per capita than it is today.

    I doubt that Police Chief Gilbert has even read the annual crime statistics published by the Wisconsin Dept of Justice as required by state law. If he has he would be aware of the following statistics.
    1. 67% of weapons used to commit violent crimes in Wisconsin during 2009 were other than firearms.
    2. Of all murders reported, firearms were used only 13% of the time.
    3. Most murders occurred in locations with a population exceeding 50,000.
    4. The highest ratio of murder victims by age/race was blacks between the ages of 14 and 29.
    5. The highest ratio of murder assailants by age/race was blacks between the age of 14 to 29.
    6. 47% of all Wisconsin murders in 2009 were over money and drugs.

    These are not my figures. They are obtained from the above mentioned report published by the Wisconsin Department of justice. It is apparent that the majority of murders commited by firearms, per annum, in Wisconsin are inter-city blacks between the ages of 14 and 29 killing other blacks between the age of 14 to 29 over issue of money and drugs. It shoild be apparent to any high rankig law enforcement official that takes the time to read this report that the cause of a high murder rate is not the weapon used but a complex situation of social/economic circumstances. I suspect that Chief Gilbert has fallen into the same psychological trap many long serving law enforcement officers do. They deal daily with the lower 10% of society and it'sproblems that hey lose sight of the fact that 90% of society is peaceful and mean them no ill will. In fact 90% of society would gladly give them assistance if requested. It's time law enforcement management takes off the blinders and see the situation as it really is and not yield to fantacies and fals information from self-interested groups.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    No one has answered my previous question. Does the city have an anti OC ordinance? The Chief's quote makes it sound like it since he said
    Gilberg says his officers will also continue to arrest people for gun violations, saying “in short, leave your guns at the city line or lose them and pay fines ranging from $250 to $500 per offense.”

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    Paul:The following link from the Wisconsin law library contains the ordinances and codes for all towns, cities and villages that have posted such laws on the internet. Black River Falls apparantly is one of the few that have not done so. I guess the only way to get an answer to your question is to call Gilbert himself.

    http://wilawlibrary.gov/topics/ordinances.php

  16. #16
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Paul:The following link from the Wisconsin law library contains the ordinances and codes for all towns, cities and villages that have posted such laws on the internet. Black River Falls apparantly is one of the few that have not done so. I guess the only way to get an answer to your question is to call Gilbert himself.

    http://wilawlibrary.gov/topics/ordinances.php
    Black River Falls isn't listed.

    I was hoping a resident had the information off the top of their head.

  17. #17
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Great article Hubert, I love the fact that you quoted Ron Kind in it, although after having many talks with him I think he thinks the second amendment is talking about duck hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    No one has answered my previous question. Does the city have an anti OC ordinance? The Chief's quote makes it sound like it since he said
    Sounds like he is imposing his own city wide gun ban. I wonder what the SCOTUS would think about that.

  19. #19
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Black River Falls isn't listed.

    I was hoping a resident had the information off the top of their head.
    OK. I have been Googling up a storm and can't find their ordinance online anywhere. The only 'official' website I see seems to be a chamber of commerce site.

  20. #20
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    Black River Falls does NOT EXIST

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    OK. I have been Googling up a storm and can't find their ordinance online anywhere. The only 'official' website I see seems to be a chamber of commerce site.
    i agree i can not find any information on city ordinances. I would recommend telling the wacko cheif he does not work for BRF as it has no published laws. Must be a figment of his imagination.

    Seriously, i would email the DA Fox and ask him where to get the ordinances. Otherwide if your cat farts in public they may hang the cat then you since there is no one to show why not in published form << could not resist that comment >>> sorry cat lovers lol!~

  21. #21
    Regular Member opusd2's Avatar
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    I'm glad someone mentioned how stupid a comment the whole "wild west" claim is. I think it would be more accurate to come up with a saying that incorporates either Chicago or DC. Hell, even Madison would be more accurate than a comment about the west. Unless of course you are referring to modern day Denver with all of it's modern weapon laws and the police forces out there with the local reputation of being just a "little too aggressive" to the citizens. I saw a lot of it first hand when out there.

    And specialized training? Does that include their trips to the gym to work out and try to puff up like a bird to scare others? It's so cute when they do that.

  22. #22
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post

    Obviously Police Chief Gilbert grew up watching too many B westerns and listening to anti-gun dribble. The murder rate by firearms in the whole United States during the "Wild West days" was around 40 to 50 per year. Far fewer per capita than it is today.

    I doubt that Police Chief Gilbert has even read the annual crime statistics published by the Wisconsin Dept of Justice as required by state law. If he has he would be aware of the following statistics.
    1. 67% of weapons used to commit violent crimes in Wisconsin during 2009 were other than firearms.
    2. Of all murders reported, firearms were used only 13% of the time.
    3. Most murders occurred in locations with a population exceeding 50,000.
    4. The highest ratio of murder victims by age/race was blacks between the ages of 14 and 29.
    5. The highest ratio of murder assailants by age/race was blacks between the age of 14 to 29.
    6. 47% of all Wisconsin murders in 2009 were over money and drugs.

    These are not my figures. They are obtained from the above mentioned report published by the Wisconsin Department of justice.
    This guy couldn't get a job as a mall cop so I wonder who he knew to get this job. I wonder if he realizes just how embarrassing he sounds.

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