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Real news
- Thread starter estcrh
- Start date
georg jetson
Regular Member
Hmmmm... lets focus... Here's the wording.
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
Look at this specifically " if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located."
Licensed to do what??? 922r (2)(A) answers this question...
It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to POSSESS a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
This means the license is needed for "possession" only. HB556 fulfills the requirement for POSSESSION. There is no requirement for the MANNER of possession in the fed statute. So...
With the permit from our servants we CAN possess a firearm in a FEDERALLY defined GFSZ.
With the GUARANTEE from Art 1 sec 11 of La Const. our right to OC is protected.
So... my answer to Barf is this... and in agreement with the very perceptive wrightme
The permit holder MUST ALWAYS comply with the CC laws... when CCing... However, just because one posses a permit does not require him to relinquish a right. The permit allows the possession to fulfill the fed requirements and the La. Const fulfills the state requirement for OC. Isn't this simple.
Of course we are discussing law here... do not rely any information without reading for yourself.
wrightme
Regular Member
It is not an "idiotic statement." It is all about where the invisible GFSZs are.
Only if the state statute requires it. I have yet to see ANY state statute that requires concealment after receiving a CC permit. The permit allows concealment; it does not require it.
(This is a misconception that is typically presented and perpetuated by CC instructors. Always look to the statute.)
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turbodog
Regular Member
Well, RS 40:1382 could be a problem to the idea of completely concealed or not.
I don't mean OC, which is plainly not an attempt at concealment, I mean carrying partially concealed.
Depending on where you are and how you are acting, you could possibly be charged under this one if not fully concealed or fully open.
§1382. Negligent carrying of a concealed handgun
A. Negligent carrying of a concealed handgun is the intentional or criminally negligent carrying by any person, whether or not authorized or licensed to carry or possess a concealed handgun, under the following circumstances:
(1) When it is foreseeable that the handgun may discharge, or when others are placed in reasonable apprehension that the handgun may discharge.
(2) When the handgun is being carried, brandished, or displayed under circumstances that create a reasonable apprehension on the part of members of the public or a law enforcement official that a crime is being committed or is about to be committed.
B. It shall be within the discretion of the law enforcement officer to issue a summons to a person accused of committing this offense in lieu of making a physical arrest. The seizure of the handgun pending resolution of the offense shall only be discretionary in the instance where the law enforcement officer issues a summons to the person accused. If the law enforcement officer makes a physical arrest of the person accused, the handgun and the person's license to carry such handgun shall be seized.
C. Whoever commits the offense of negligent carrying of a concealed handgun shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned without hard labor for not more than six months, or both. The adjudicating judge may also order the forfeiture of the handgun and may suspend or revoke any permit or license authorizing the carrying of the handgun.
Acts 1996, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 4, §1, eff. April 19, 1996.
I would have to say (and this is based on personal experience) that if one was standing in a checkout line at a local stopnrob with the butt of a handgun sticking out of an IWB holster, I would be willing to bet that the sight of this can cause "reasonable apprehension on the part of members of the public" standing in line behind you.
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turbodog
Regular Member
I agree that the CC permit issued here in Louisiana satisfys the federal requirement to carry in a GFSZ.
The state law now says that one may carry a firearm in a GFSZ provided one does so "in accordance with a CC permit issued pursuant to RS 40:1379.1 or 1379.3".
So, here's another question: Just what is it they mean by, "in accordance with"?
estcrh
Regular Member
Braf..as usual you twist what I say to suit your purposes..I did not say you need a conceal permit to open carry..I said in order to open carry and not have to worry about breaking a law by entering a school gun free zone one would need a concealed carry permit....if you cover your open carry gun in a school zone without a permit you are breaking a law....if you open carry in a school zone and do not have a concealed carry permit you are breaking the law......if you open carry and realize that you are entering a school zone and have a concealed carry permit and cover your gun you are legal......the only not clear area is if you open carry and have a concealed permit and enter a school zone but do not cover....are you then breaking a law????
I was told by the new Orleans D.A.s office that you are not required to keep your gun covered just because you have a concealed permit...it just meant that you could cover it and not be breaking a law.....like I said...I COULD BE WRONG ON THIS!!!!!! BUT ITS WORTH CHECKING OUT....if you do not need to cover your gun when you have a concealed carry permit then you would be able to open carry on any street or area were there was an unknown school zone and not have to worry about breaking any laws...for many people who want to open carry every were they go but cant due to the fear of unknown school zones being used against them ( as Lt Selby of the 8th dist police threatened to do to me if I open carried in the Quarter) this law will clear the path for being able to open carry on any street at any time....
.If having a concealed carry permit does mean that you must have your gun covered in a school zone its still a victory as people will have the option of getting a permit and using it when in doubt of the location of school zones and they could still open carry when in places they are sure are have no school zones. Thats a lot better option then having to decide if you will go unarmed or break the law and carry into a school zone as many people have to do every day just to be safe. Of course some people do not care if they BEAK THE LAWS AND RISK BEING CONVICTED OF A FELONY!!!! but I do!! Then again I am a tax paying law abiding citizen.
wrightme
Regular Member
IMHO, after reading the Fed statute, NO. The federal statute does not require concealment, it only requires licensure.
Unless the CC statute requires concealment while carrying the permit (ridiculous imho), you do NOT need to conceal; you just need to have the permit/license.
wrightme
Regular Member
It shouldn't. It is simply a firearm in a holster. That should no more cause 'reasonable apprehension' than seeing an OC firearm, or seeing a concealed firearm 'print' through concealment. What you are describing is more akin to "unreasonable fear" of a possibility.
georg jetson
Regular Member
Tdog... Can you post the specific section of law you're referring of???
estcrh
Regular Member
Will out of state permit holders be covered?
XD-GEM
Campaign Veteran
RS 40:1379.3 (the concealed handgun permit law) http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=97451 does NOT require that you carry concealed - it is simply a "get out of jail free card" against prosecution for violating RS 14:95 (Illegal Carrying of Weapons) http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78739 as concerns a conceled firearm.
For years, several concealed carry instructors mistakenly taught that getting a CHP meant that you gave up your right to OC. Their teaching was based on a misreading of the Administrative law that provided the process for issuing the permits. Sgt. Starnes, the former head of the LSP CHP unit discussed this with me at some length a few years back. His successor in the CHP unit, Sgt. Reavis, is in agreement with us that OC is a right and is uneffected by obtaining a CHP. He has even gone so far as to warn fellow officers that they must respect the rights of OCers or face severe legal repercussions.
To answer turbodog's question, then, the phrase "in accordance with the permit" simply means that the exemption to the federal GFSZ law would apply to anyone who had obtained the permit under their state's laws.
In sum, then, Article 1, Section 11 of the Louisiana Constitution provides protection against the state GFSZ law, while the CHP provides a defense against the federal one - although I personally think that a successful challenge to the federal law could be made under the 2A in light of Heller and McDonald.
For years, several concealed carry instructors mistakenly taught that getting a CHP meant that you gave up your right to OC. Their teaching was based on a misreading of the Administrative law that provided the process for issuing the permits. Sgt. Starnes, the former head of the LSP CHP unit discussed this with me at some length a few years back. His successor in the CHP unit, Sgt. Reavis, is in agreement with us that OC is a right and is uneffected by obtaining a CHP. He has even gone so far as to warn fellow officers that they must respect the rights of OCers or face severe legal repercussions.
To answer turbodog's question, then, the phrase "in accordance with the permit" simply means that the exemption to the federal GFSZ law would apply to anyone who had obtained the permit under their state's laws.
In sum, then, Article 1, Section 11 of the Louisiana Constitution provides protection against the state GFSZ law, while the CHP provides a defense against the federal one - although I personally think that a successful challenge to the federal law could be made under the 2A in light of Heller and McDonald.
XD-GEM
Campaign Veteran
estrch, there is a new change to the state's concealed handgun permit laws which will phase out recognition of non-resident permits issued by other states to Louisiana residents. If you are a Louisiana resident and want to carry concealed, you will need to get a Louisiana CHP by August 15, 2011.
People who have non-resident permits, but who are NOT Louisiana residents, may still carry concealed with those permits.
See this bill: http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=721669
estcrh
Regular Member
Thanks XD..I was just wondering if the wording of the school gun zone law applied only to La. concealed permits or if non residents would be safe to enter school zones while carrying their concealed permit from their own state.
turbodog
Regular Member
This is from HB 556 that the Gov signed, which amends the states GFSZ law.
AN ACT
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 14:95.2(C)(4) and R.S. 40:1379.3(N)(11), relative to firearms;
3 to provide with respect to firearm-free zones; to provide relative to the possession
4 of firearms by concealed handgun permit holders; to retain the prohibition regarding
5 the carrying of concealed handguns at a school; to prohibit the carrying of concealed
6 handguns on any school campus or school bus; and to provide for related matters.
7 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
8 Section 1. R.S. 14:95.2(C)(4) is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
9 §95.2. Carrying a firearm or dangerous weapon by a student or nonstudent on
10 school property, at school-sponsored functions or firearm-free zone
11 * * *
12 C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to:
13 * * *
14 (4) The possession of a firearm occurring within one thousand feet of school
15 property and entirely on private property, or entirely within a private residence, or
16 in accordance with a concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to R.S. 40:1379.1
17 or R.S. 40:1379.3.
18
And how will you get the gun to and from the private property or private residence?
turbodog
Regular Member
You may be good under state law but you would still be liable to prosecution under the federal law.
Here is the exception in the federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996 that was given to permit holders:
B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to the
possession of a firearm—
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
the State or political subdivision requires that, before
an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
So one can see that an out of state permit is not an exception to the federal GFSZ law, even if there is reciprocity. It must be a permit issued from the state the school zone is located in.
turbodog
Regular Member
Don't quite get the question Grapeshot. If on private property (this include businesses) you can carry how you like and be legal. If you walked on the public sidewalk or street in front said private property, you would be illegal.
If you placed a firearm in your car while on private property and transported it on a public street, you would be legal, as the law defines that as an activity that is constitutionally protected.
The weakness is mine on La. law.
So if the private property was within the GFSZ you can transport to and from in a vehicle but not on foot - right?
turbodog
Regular Member
Correct.
turbodog
Regular Member
Actually XD, my reference was to the revised state GFSZ law. Permit holders are now allowed to carry in such zones but the law now states "in accordance with a permit issued pursuant to RS 40:1379.1 or 1379.3"
So my question still stands in regards to the state law: What does the legislature mean by "in accordance with?
What I'm looking for is others opinions on whether or not the legislature intended that line to mean concealed carry only. Certainly if one has a CC permit and are carrying concealed, it could be said you are carrying "in accordance with a permit issued pursuant to RS 40:1379.1 or 1379.3".
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