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Thread: Journal Sentinal - Brookfield police stop car to seize legally carried gun

  1. #1
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    Journal Sentinal - Brookfield police stop car to seize legally carried gun

    This report gives no inkling as to what "reaonable suspicion" provided the basis for the police to stop the gun owners car per Terry v. Ohio & Delaware v. Prouse.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/98082044.html

    SNIP

    Woman wears gun in holster to church
    She drives away and is stopped and ticketed by police
    By Bruce Vielmetti of the Journal Sentinel

    Posted: July 8, 2010 |(45) Comments

    TMJ4 Video
    Gun advocate arrested after taking gun into church A Unitarian Universalist church might well be the last place you'd expect to find someone wearing a gun.

    Maybe that's why Krysta Sutterfield chose the Unitarian church in Brookfield for an open-carry demonstration on Sunday. If she wanted to bring attention to the gun rights debate, she surely succeeded, though she probably didn't plan on getting arrested in the process.

    Brookfield police said Thursday they were called to the church at 13001 W. North Ave. about 10:30 a.m. by a church staffer who said a woman was wearing a handgun in a hip holster. By the time three squad cars arrived, Sutterfield was driving away. She was stopped, and police found the loaded 9mm gun in a zipped case on the passenger seat.

    She was handcuffed, taken to the police station, processed and ticketed for having the loaded gun in her car - a state forfeiture citation, not a criminal offense. Sutterfield was then released.

    She was not ticketed for openly carrying the weapon into the church, which did not have signs prohibiting firearms.

    "We've referred the case to the district attorney," Police Capt. Phil Horter said.

    Sutterfield, 41, of Milwaukee, referred questions Thursday to her attorney, Rebecca Coffee, who said she couldn't comment on her client's intentions or actions Sunday.

    Caryl Sewel, president of the congregation at Unitarian Universalist Church West, said Sutterfield may have attended a service before but was not a registered member of the church. Because of the Fourth of July holiday, Sunday's service was lightly attended, Sewel said, and a guest minister was speaking about civil rights.

    Sewel said that Sutterfield's gun was clearly visible on her hip, but that she didn't ever remove it from its holster or do anything overtly threatening. Still, it concerned Sewell.

    "I didn't feel comfortable asking her why she was wearing the gun," Sewel said. "Truthfully, we found it very intimidating," especially in light of the 2005 shootings at a church service at a Brookfield hotel that left eight people dead, and a 2008 shooting at a Unitarian church in Tennessee that killed two people.

    But Sewel said other members did ask Sutterfield, and she replied she was expressing her 2nd Amendment rights.

    Sewel said other staff called the administrative line of the Brookfield Police Department for clarification about the legality, and the officers responded in force with at least three squad cars. She said she didn't think that was an overreaction, again because of the memories of the 2005 shootings.

    The church will probably now post a sign banning guns, Sewel said, but it has no grudge against Sutterfield.

    "We'd be happy to have her come back," Sewel said. "Just don't bring a gun."

    Gun rights advocates are riding some momentum lately. Last year, state Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen advised law enforcement that open-carry was not, in itself, a basis for a charge of disorderly conduct. Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the 2nd Amendment right of most individuals to possess firearms applies to the states, and within a day, one Wisconsin district attorney said he would no longer prosecute cases of concealed carry or transporting uncased or loaded guns in vehicles. A challenge to Wisconsin law banning guns within 1,000 feet of a school is pending in federal court.

    Nik Clark, president of Wisconsin Carry Inc., called the state "behind the times" for prohibiting transport of loaded guns, which most states allow.

    "Wisconsin Carry advocates that people follow all Wisconsin firearm regulations, even those we find patently unconstitutional, until such time as we are able to change those laws through legal challenges and/or legislative changes," Clark said.

    . . .

  2. #2
    McX
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    Grrrrrrr!

    added on edit; yoinked this out of another states thread, looks like a few need classes on constitutional rights around here;

    Judge orders Iowa sheriff to issue gun permit

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...,3942729.story
    Last edited by McX; 07-09-2010 at 10:25 AM.

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    Regular Member Cobra469's Avatar
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    We are sorry, but the server is temporarily unavailable. Please try back later.

    Either bad link or the liberal media can't maintain their servers.

  4. #4
    McX
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    silenced by the left!!!!!!!

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    Regular Member kd6sxa's Avatar
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    Smile Unitarian Universalists Church

    Today individual Unitarian Universalists may identify as Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Humanist, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions.

    Because the Unitarian Universalists Church bases of their beliefs on everything but the one true God, it will be difficult for any logic to come from the Church president. Not allowing open carry in this church is a greater service to those who want to carry and worship at the same time. Simply staying away from this church is a good thing all around. Exodus 20 spell that out. I wonder if the OC lady transported it loaded or if the charge is what LEO thought of in a pinch.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    no religion-bashing, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by kd6sxa View Post
    Because the Unitarian Universalists Church bases of their beliefs on everything but the one true God, it will be difficult for any logic to come from the Church president.
    I've asked on other threads related to this incident, & I guess I have to say it again:
    PLEASE no religion-bashing.
    I may not agree with your religious beliefs, but I'm unlikely to tell you you're wrong unless your beliefs lead you to harm someone.
    Please do me the same courtesy.

    Logic doesn't depend on religion, though some people put religious belief above logic, as in the case of these people who claim to promote civil rights, but want to deny the right to self-defense. Quote from the church president: "We're not against the right to bear arms, we just don't want it in our church." Try substituting "black people" for "the right to bear arms" and see how far that'd fly in that church.

    Until Sunday morning, I considered myself a member of that faith for close to 20 years.
    Anyone who knows me can tell you I'm a decent, moral, ethical, kind, responsible, gentle, etc. person.
    I've been a Girl Scout for nearly 30 years.
    I volunteer in the community.
    I feed the birds & took in 2 stray cats.
    I dither over eating meat... I like the taste, but it's not really healthy & I feel sorry for the animals 'cause they're treated badly.

    Most importantly, I believe civil rights are for everyone. I may not agree with how some people use their rights (certain toxic talk-show hosts & religious leaders come to mind), but they're allowed to speak their mind.
    And no, that doesn't conflict with asking people not to denegrate a religion. I'm not telling you you're not allowed to, I'm asking you please don't.

    As a side point, Unitarians did originally believe in the One True God. That's why they're Unitarians instead of Trinitarians (father, son, holy spirit). No matter what name you use to address it, there is only one god / great cosmic force / whatever you want to call it.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kd6sxa View Post
    I wonder if the OC lady transported it loaded or if the charge is what LEO thought of in a pinch.
    I can't discuss much beyond the illegal stop, but I will say that it took them an awful long time, & a couple calls to the DA, to find the "illegal transport" statute. And I still haven't been ticketed.

    That's all it is, folks - a ticket. Equivalent to running a stop sign. It's not criminal, there's no penalty, it's just a fine.
    For that they had 3 or 4 officers (it changed back & forth) in the booking room, reading the law books, making phone calls, etc. Wouldn't it have been better if they were on the streets, protecting people?

  8. #8
    McX
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    the ticket is a small matter; VIOLATION OF YOUR RIGHTS IS A BIG MATTER. tricky how i did that in small then big letters huh? how many cops does it take to violate your rights? apparently 3 or 4.

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    The three or four cops is an element of the arrest/detainment issue - if and when someone chooses to make it an 'issue'.

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    VIOLATION OF YOUR RIGHTS IS A BIG MATTER.
    I understand that. Really I do.
    I've heard noises about a civil rights suit against the city, but that's not right now.
    Right now my focus is on getting my property back.

    And even if there's a civil rights suit, and even if (when?) the city loses, all I'd expect from it is that my arrest record be expunged (since it wasn't a good arrest), my information be removed from their system & wherever else they sent it, and they pay all lawyer fees stemming from the incident.

    A little extra money (to stick the principle of RAS in their memory & assuage my lingering embarrassment) & an apology would be nice, too. I understand those aren't unreasonable expectations. In fact, I'm given to believe they're entirely within the realm of possibility.

  11. #11
    McX
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    once your in their system, your in, they may expunge your record, but their notes and such will always be there. springfield got an appology. i never did for the hell my local pd put me through. a lawsuit teaches them a lesson, and moneytary awards are like a good spanking to them. hit them in the wallet, that's the only place they will realy feel it. but for now, yes, a step at a time- starting with the return of your property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    once your in their system, your in, they may expunge your record, but their notes and such will always be there. springfield got an appology. i never did for the hell my local pd put me through. a lawsuit teaches them a lesson, and moneytary awards are like a good spanking to them. hit them in the wallet, that's the only place they will realy feel it. but for now, yes, a step at a time- starting with the return of your property.
    You have to fill out finger print removal cards for each charge. They are submitted to the DOJ and the records will be ordered removed. If the PD doesn't remove them they will be in deep doo doo.

  13. #13
    McX
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    important info. i'm even going to save this! never know. thanks mr. gleason, realy realy good post! invaluable!

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    Yes, please read it knowing that it's dated September 2009 and its a decision not particularly effective on Wisconsin, let alone binding.

  16. #16
    McX
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    poop, there goes my ray of hope. you would think being fed and all.

  17. #17
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    The Wikipedia article is a good place to start to read about the Federal Courts system, including the various districts and the effect of a decision by one on the others.

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    Regular Member kd6sxa's Avatar
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    ref: no religion-bashing, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I've asked on other threads related to this incident, & I guess I have to say it again:
    PLEASE no religion-bashing.
    I may not agree with your religious beliefs, but I'm unlikely to tell you you're wrong unless your beliefs lead you to harm someone.
    Please do me the same courtesy.

    Logic doesn't depend on religion, though some people put religious belief above logic, as in the case of these people who claim to promote civil rights, but want to deny the right to self-defense. Quote from the church president: "We're not against the right to bear arms, we just don't want it in our church." Try substituting "black people" for "the right to bear arms" and see how far that'd fly in that church.

    Until Sunday morning, I considered myself a member of that faith for close to 20 years.
    Anyone who knows me can tell you I'm a decent, moral, ethical, kind, responsible, gentle, etc. person.
    I've been a Girl Scout for nearly 30 years.
    I volunteer in the community.
    I feed the birds & took in 2 stray cats.
    I dither over eating meat... I like the taste, but it's not really healthy & I feel sorry for the animals 'cause they're treated badly.

    Most importantly, I believe civil rights are for everyone. I may not agree with how some people use their rights (certain toxic talk-show hosts & religious leaders come to mind), but they're allowed to speak their mind.
    And no, that doesn't conflict with asking people not to denegrate a religion. I'm not telling you you're not allowed to, I'm asking you please don't.

    As a side point, Unitarians did originally believe in the One True God. That's why they're Unitarians instead of Trinitarians (father, son, holy spirit). No matter what name you use to address it, there is only one god / great cosmic force / whatever you want to call it.
    I will not stop speaking or writing the truth. As soon as you take the truth and add your own stuff, like Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Humanist, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions, it then only is religion. If that is what you are looking for, you got it.

    http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml

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    Arrest

    MKEgal--see U.S. v Dudley--southern district of Indiana. In a state which allows open carry there is no reason for the police to have contact with a citizen on the basis of the open display of a firearm(as per this judgement).

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    One squeaky wheel gets the grease and the other gets the shaft - dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4sooth View Post
    MKEgal--see U.S. v Dudley--southern district of Indiana. In a state which allows open carry there is no reason for the police to have contact with a citizen on the basis of the open display of a firearm(as per this judgement).
    Not speaking for the cops - or excusing them - they were responding to a MWAG from a hysterical church "person". If a church "person" and a gun nut call the cops, which squeaky wheel gets the grease and which gets the shaft - dry?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kd6sxa View Post
    I will not stop speaking or writing the truth. As soon as you take the truth and add your own stuff, like Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Humanist, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions, it then only is religion. If that is what you are looking for, you got it.

    http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml
    However, this is an OC forum. The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.

  22. #22
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    they were responding to a MWAG from an hysterical church "person".
    I haven't heard the call yet, but it is my understanding that after the service someone called the non-emergency # to ask if what I was doing is legal.

    Nobody at the church has ever said I was doing anything threatening, and they admit the gun never left the holster. They wanted information, not police response.

    The police chose to treat it as a "threatening WWAG" and respond in force.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    ...The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.
    FYI - the correct usage is "its" - "it's" means "it is".

  24. #24
    Regular Member kd6sxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    However, this is an OC forum. The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.
    I disagree, however that is not what this thread is all about.

  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kd6sxa View Post
    I disagree, however that is not what this thread is all about.
    Why does the church have anything to do with OC? According to multiple reports the church called the non-emergency number and asked if open carrying was legal. It was the cops that over reacted.

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