Journal Sentinal - Brookfield police stop car to seize legally carried gun

One squeaky wheel gets the grease and the other gets the shaft - dry.

4sooth said:

MKEgal--see U.S. v Dudley--southern district of Indiana. In a state which allows open carry there is no reason for the police to have contact with a citizen on the basis of the open display of a firearm(as per this judgement).

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Not speaking for the cops - or excusing them - they were responding to a MWAG from a hysterical church "person". If a church "person" and a gun nut call the cops, which squeaky wheel gets the grease and which gets the shaft - dry?

kd6sxa said:

I will not stop speaking or writing the truth. As soon as you take the truth and add your own stuff, like Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Humanist, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions, it then only is religion. If that is what you are looking for, you got it.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml

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However, this is an OC forum. The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.

Doug Huffman said:

they were responding to a MWAG from an hysterical church "person".

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I haven't heard the call yet, but it is my understanding that after the service someone called the non-emergency # to ask if what I was doing is legal.

Nobody at the church has ever said I was doing anything threatening, and they admit the gun never left the holster. They wanted information, not police response.

The police chose to treat it as a "threatening WWAG" and respond in force.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

...The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.

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FYI - the correct usage is "its" - "it's" means "it is".

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

However, this is an OC forum. The church and it's beliefs have NOTHING to do with it.

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I disagree, however that is not what this thread is all about.

kd6sxa said:

I disagree, however that is not what this thread is all about.

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Why does the church have anything to do with OC? According to multiple reports the church called the non-emergency number and asked if open carrying was legal. It was the cops that over reacted.

The church was involved in the incident. It is where the incident started and under the entire scenario the church people were involved. Therefore IMHO they are fair game. If they did not want to shed a bad light on the church they should have kept their mouths shut and posted a sign before the next service. Simple as that. I am having my doubts that with all of the open carry in Milwaukee right now people are that ignorant about OC. But who knows.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Why does the church have anything to do with OC? According to multiple reports the church called the non-emergency number and asked if open carrying was legal. It was the cops that over reacted.

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My point isn't about what the police did or didn't do. My point is only this. The decisions made buy the church and the church members were not in line with the Unitarian Universalism principles.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Their belief system is contrary to basic right and wrong. I believe as do most that the church acted inappropriately.
The police should never have been called. The investigation by the church members should have included MKEgal.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml

When making ethical decisions, no one stands outside a social and cultural world. Each of us judges human reality according to a set of adopted and adapted moral criteria based on such factors as nationality, education, social class, professional occupation, and, of course, religious affiliation.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v9n1/horizon.html

Thanks for the link URL to Santa Clara University.

kd6sxa said:

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v9n1/horizon.html

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Thanks for the link URL to Santa Clara University. I grew up in its shadow and appreciated the Jesuit Brothers, my neighbors. I remember them in cassocks and wonder if they still daily dress so. But I am pleased to follow Martin Luther.

Doug Huffman said:

Thanks for the link URL to Santa Clara University. I grew up in its shadow and appreciated the Jesuit Brothers, my neighbors. I remember them in cassocks and wonder if they still daily dress so. But I am pleased to follow Martin Luther.

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Yeah, sure.

Some Background Information

kd6sxa said:

My point isn't about what the police did or didn't do. My point is only this. The decisions made buy the church and the church members were not in line with the Unitarian Universalism principles.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

<Deleted for Length>

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Please take what I am about to print as informative, not bashing; I am only trying to bring some background information to the situation.

UUA also publishes resolutions from time to time as do most churches, to clarify or change their stance on issues that may affect their members. In 1991, they published this resolution and now it may be seen on their website:

Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations

Gun Control
1991 General Resolution
BECAUSE Unitarian Universalists affirm the inherent worth of every human life; and

BECAUSE safe coexistence within society requires reasonable compromise with the concept of absolute personal liberty; and

WHEREAS the General Assembly of the Unitarian Universalist Association passed, in 1972, a resolution advocating mandatory licensing for the purchase and possession of all usable guns and, in 1976, a resolution urging the passage of legislation restricting the ownership or possession of handguns;

WHEREAS in the United States legislation regarding firearms varies widely from state to state;

WHEREAS according to the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) in a report covering the period 1986-1988:

1. firearms are a leading cause of accidental death among children ages 14 and under in the United States;
2. an estimated 130 million firearms exist in the United States, one for every two households;
3. and
4. every year there are over 1 million "gun incidents," including nearly 11,000 murders involving firearms, 15,000 suicides, 1,900 accidental deaths, 175,000 criminal assaults committed with firearms, 221,000 armed robberies, 90,000 forcible rapes, and over 200,000 gun-related injuries;

WHEREAS many consumer products sold in North America are regulated to protect the public from hazards associated with their use; and

WHEREAS machine guns and semi-automatic and automatic assault weapons are highly powerful weapons designed for the efficient destruction of life;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Unitarian Universalist Association, its member congregations, and individual Unitarian Universalists be encouraged to petition legislators to enact and support laws such as:

1. the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1991 (HR7) in the United States, which is intended to place nationally uniform, effective limitations on individual possession of
2. handguns, including waiting periods, licensing, and registration;
3. the "Mitchell Compromise"; and
4. Bill C-80 (1991) in Canada, which is intended to make the purchase of firearms more difficult;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Unitarian Universalist Association, its member congregations, and individual Unitarian Universalists be urged to petition legislators to include safety training programs as a mandatory condition that must be met before firearms can be owned and used; and

BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that the Unitarian Universalist Association, its member congregations, and individual Unitarian Universalists in the United States be urged to petition legislators to enact and support laws banning private ownership or use of machine guns and semi-automatic and automatic assault weapons.

Last updated on Thursday, June 3, 2010.

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paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Why does the church have anything to do with OC? According to multiple reports the church called the non-emergency number and asked if open carrying was legal. It was the cops that over reacted.

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I could understand them doing an extra drive-by, just to be seen in the area. Some people feel safe when they see a cop once a day I guess. I think Brown deer has done that to me a few times. Much past that and I would say the cops are over reacting. So even the name and papers questions are a little over the line.

"Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations:

1. firearms are a leading cause of accidental death among children ages 14 and under in the United States"

Uh, yeah. According to the 2007 CDC data, accidental shooting would be THE leading cause of death of children 14 and under if you didn't have any kids dying from motor vehicle accidents (25 times more likely), drowning (over 10 and half times more likely), fires and burns (over 4 times more likely), pedestrian accidents (almost 3 times more likely), other land transport accidents - presumably bicycles primarily (over twice as likely), poisoning (1.7 times more likely), accidentally being struck by or against something (e.g., running into another kid or a brick wall or a baseball) (slightly more likely) and falls (slightly more likely.)

So yeah, it ranks number #10 on the list of leading causes of accidental death in the 0-14 year old age group. There's a huge difference in the number of deaths caused by the top three or four causes of death, and the rest of the list. Firearms accounted for less than 1.7% of all accidental deaths in this age group. Of course there is no excuse for any negligent death by firearm. But there's no excuse for not having kids seatbelted, supervised in the pool or tub, not allowed to play with matches, poisons locked up, and all the other things that increase the chance of an unintended death or injury.

Losing a child is horrible whatever the cause, be it injury or illness. But to single out firearm deaths from among all the much more likely causes of accidental death is clearly politically and emotionally motivated. That's not a good basis to make policy.

good news

I got my gun back yesterday.
Also picked up a stack of documentation & a CD with audio & video.
Interesting... especially the APR09 memo from the chief about OC.

Last night I made a transcript of the audio, both the phone call & an assortment of radio traffic.
The church did ask for "an officer" to come, because they were "uneasy".
They did ask a couple of times what the law is about OC.

And they said in no uncertain terms that I was not being violent or threatening, information which was passed on to dispatch and then to the responding officers (although the first radio announcement was a MWAG!).

And there are so many errors in what's said as well as what's written that I don't know where to start.

So there you go. Start with an attorney.

http://www.uucw.org/news-a-events/1...d31045917126=57d886c1f486d8bd05d0f7e8bfc6d841

This is the current statement from the UU church about the incident.

This is different than the original statement they issued.

Does anyone have a copy of the original statement? Hopefully a screen capture?

Wisconsin Carry said:

This is the current statement from the UU church about the incident.
This is different than the original statement they issued.
Does anyone have a copy of the original statement? Hopefully a screen capture?

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I copied the text into a document on the evening of the 21st, and it's the same as what's there now.

They must have changed it by then. The statement posted a few days after the incident I specifically recall them stating that they called the "non-emergency" number.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/98082044.html

Caryl Sewel, president of the congregation at Unitarian Universalist Church West,

Sewel said other staff called the administrative line of the Brookfield Police Department for clarification about the legality, and the officers responded in force with at least three squad cars.

Perfect, Thanks Frank!