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Thread: You guys are a bad influence.

  1. #1
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    You guys are a bad influence.

    After reading about several people on here having a Mosan Nagant I started checking around on them.
    This morning I finally went out and picked one up at Gander Mountain (129.00).
    Came with cleaning accesories and pouch, bayonet, oiler, etc. I have seen them cheaper but required many miles
    on the road.
    What ammo do you guys usually shoot, all they had at GM was Bear.
    I have seen the 7.62x54R in the sportsman guide but it stated it was steel core, wouldn't this be considered
    armor piercing and illegal.
    Now to get the generous amount of cosmo cleaned off

    gettysburg

  2. #2
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    when i had my nagant,i used military surplus for regular shooting,and bear for hunting.

    im pretty sure that it is legal,they sell it almost anywhere and the batfe hasnt said anything about it.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  3. #3
    Regular Member American Boy With a Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    when i had my nagant,i used military surplus for regular shooting,and bear for hunting.

    im pretty sure that it is legal,they sell it almost anywhere and the batfe hasnt said anything about it.

    Its legal, my dad has pretty much the same stuff for his Mosin, the steel core, not the Bear...although, he might have some bear layin around somewheres....if it was Illegal, do you really think it would be so easy to get?
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I used to get ammo on-line for about $100 per (2) 440 round tins (880 rounds)...I would purchase thousands of rounds at a time. It's fun to shoot around sunset and watch the fireball and the big "whoosh" of air.

    I also used my Mosin Nagant deer hunting: used Sellier/Bellot 180 gr soft Point. Performs pretty closely to a 30.06 or .308

    Remember that MOST 7.62x54r surplus ammo is corrosive. Some shooters prefer a 50/50 mixture of water and ammonia to swab out the bore and wipe down the bolt face. Don't leave the ammonia solution in the bore and don't get it on the wood. I usually used Windex with ammonia D. Oil it lightly after use to keep it rust free.


    Michigan bans armor piercing but steel core is legal if it can't be used in a pistol, has a sporting use, or is exempt under fed law..
    Feds, pretty much the same thing.

    Michigan law: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-224c

    Fed Law: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt

    Under Fed Law:
    The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
    handgun
    and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
    of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
    tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
    depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
    designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
    weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
    projectile.

    (C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun
    shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations
    for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target
    shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is
    primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,
    or any other
    projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is
    intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
    used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

    I still use my Mosin deer hunting every year at least one of the days I am out.

    Have fun!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Yep, "armor piercing" generally applies to handgun ammo, since most rifle rounds will easily penetrate body armor anyway.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
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    I haul scrap titanium some times. So if I was to melt some down and pour it into molds for my 44 or 45 or 357 I could be in violation if I loaded some up? hmmmmm.....I wonder how well it'd perform....LOL

  7. #7
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDog View Post
    I haul scrap titanium some times. So if I was to melt some down and pour it into molds for my 44 or 45 or 357 I could be in violation if I loaded some up? hmmmmm.....I wonder how well it'd perform....LOL
    Would be a great bear stopper, that's for sure

  8. #8
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    I don't know MI law on AP ammo, but here is what I have found on the subject while researching.

    AP ammo is legal in the US for non dealers to have, buy, and sell. You can't make it and it may not be imported.

    Why the ban occured

    http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

    ATF guidelines 2005

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

    United States Laws

    USC 18-1-4-921(17)
    (A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
    (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.




    II. Laws
    G. Federal Fireams Laws
    1. Federal Law and Armor Piercing Ammunition
    by James O. Bardwell (bardwell@netcom.com)
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?



    The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
    "(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
    which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
    substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
    bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
    intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
    percent of the total weight of the projectile.

    (C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
    required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
    purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
    finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
    used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

    [Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
    are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
    and Firearms (ATF)]

    Note the following things from the definition:

    1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
    primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
    in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
    language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

    2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
    identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
    information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
    transfer AP ammo.
    >From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
    completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
    bullets themselves does.

    3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
    construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
    mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
    in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
    bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
    as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
    least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
    or should be AP ammo.
    However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
    their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
    must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
    handgun.

    4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
    of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
    with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
    .223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
    steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
    cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
    SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

    5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

    6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

    ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

    All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
    Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
    German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
    MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
    BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
    7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
    PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
    OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
    7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

    ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

    5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
    .30-06 M2 AP ammo.

    WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

    If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
    It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
    ok to SELL AP ammo
    ok to BUY AP ammo
    ok to SHOOT AP ammo
    NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
    NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
    The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
    FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
    destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
    are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
    for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

    If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
    (with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
    No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
    not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
    FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
    holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

    If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
    NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
    to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
    No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
    The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
    be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
    27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

    18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
    for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
    enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
    FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
    with the record keeping noted above.

    Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
    laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
    laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
    to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
    regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
    approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
    piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
    may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
    the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
    of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
    depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
    by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
    a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
    which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
    purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
    Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
    including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

    Taken from
    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html
    Last edited by kwikrnu; 07-11-2010 at 05:01 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Under Fed Law:
    The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
    handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
    of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
    tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
    depleted uranium; or
    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
    designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
    weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
    projectile.

    (C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun
    shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations
    for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target
    shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is
    primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other
    projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is
    intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
    used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

    I still use my Mosin deer hunting every year at least one of the days I am out.

    Have fun!
    Depleted uranium?!?! Is this average, does anyone really have this laying around, then think, hey I bet I could make a bullet out of this!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  10. #10
    McX
    Guest
    i used to work for a contractor manufacturing du rounds. it's a signature round- meaning they will know exactly where you got it from. nasty stuff, it can reduce a tank to fist sized pieces of metal, turn people into milkshakes.

  11. #11
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    When I bought my first 91/30 Nagant I paid $190 for the rifle w/accessories along with 1K Bulgarian surplus rounds.

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