Article: Demand for gun permits drops

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TFred

VCDL President quotes included

Demand for gun permits drops
July 11, 2010 12:36 am
BY CHELYEN DAVIS

A spike in the number of Virginians seeking permits for concealed handguns after the 2008 presidential election has eased.

State police records show that the number of permits issued in 2009 to carry a concealed weapon was almost 21 percent higher than the number of permits issued in 2008.

But permit numbers for the first half of 2010 are almost 40 percent lower than for the same time period in 2009.

Virginia circuit courts recorded 26,317 concealed-carry permits issued between January and June of 2010, compared with 43,273 permits issued in the same time period in 2009.

The drop doesn't surprise Virginia Citizens Defense League President Philip Van Cleave.

The spike was due, at least in part, to concern that President Barack Obama and Democrats in Congress would enact stricter gun laws.

So far that hasn't happened, and Van Cleave said that, plus the fact that many people who wanted concealed-handgun permits now have them, has contributed to the lower numbers this year.

"Indeed there was a massive vertical climb" in permit applications, Van Cleave said. "A lot of things have leveled off now because a lot of people that wanted to do this have managed to get in the door. There was an initial concern that Obama would come in and start banning guns. It didn't [happen], and over time that's also part of the leveling-out."

SOME SEEK UTAH PERMITS

More than 228,000 Virginians have active concealed-handgun permits, according to the state police.

Some of them also have permits from other states to carry concealed handguns.

Utah is particularly popular, because more states honor Utah's permit than honor Virginia's.

According to a recent Reuters article, more non-Utahans now have Utah-issued concealed-carry permits than do Utah residents.

Van Cleave said it's nothing new for gun owners to get permits from Utah--he has been teaching the class required by Utah for a person to receive a permit there for about eight years.

"It's been pretty busy for quite a few years now. I've taught classes as large as 30 or 40 people," Van Cleave said.

Most people seeking a Utah permit already have a Virginia one, he said--getting another permit from another state such as Utah mostly appeals to people who travel a lot, especially to or through states that honor the Utah permit but not the Virginia one, such as Alabama or Georgia.

The requirements for a Utah permit are similar to those in Virginia: Applicants must pass a criminal background check and take a class to qualify.

"You still have to get the training, so no, there's nothing there that would get around our laws," Van Cleave said. "Plus, when you carry in Virginia you have to obey all the laws regardless of where your permit's from."

GUN ISSUES ARE HOT TOPIC

It has been a busy couple of weeks for gun issues. On July 1, a new state law allowing concealed-carry permit holders to carry concealed in restaurants, as long as they don't drink, took effect.

And at the end of June, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects the individual right to bear arms not just against federal government infringement, but also against interference from state and local governments as well, a ruling that could upend gun restrictions in various states.

Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has said he will review Virginia's gun laws in light of the ruling. Van Cleave said he doubted much would change in Virginia.

He said the Virginia Constitution already describes the right to bear arms as an individual right.

"For states that don't have that, like California and some of these other states, this is a big deal for them," Van Cleave said.

Chelyen Davis: 540/368-5028
Email: cdavis@freelancestar.com

Concerning the popularity of Utah permits, no mention of what may be the biggest draw, the fact that the state of Virginia almost literally draws a big red target on the front door of anyone who desires to be able to carry discretely to protect themselves from known threats, such as domestic partners, etc.

TFred

One would have to think that since the McDonald case (re)affirmed the 2nd applies to the states that it would also be on the same level as the other Amendments. Particularly when dealing with privacy issues. Could it not be argued that the permit requirement is somehow a violation of the 4th?
In-order to exercise the 'bear arms' part as the individual sees fit one must submit to a low level type of search. When applying for a permit one must give certain personal information and are actually informing the Government that indeed you possess guns; things they have no business knowing if one has not committed a criminal act. Since a crime has not been committed shouldn't this information be strictly controlled and no public discloser allowed.
I may be looking at it all wrong but the idea of a permit is unconstitutional in my view and without a permit to 'bear arms as I see fit' the privacy issues are remedied. The definition of bear arms makes absolutely no differentiation of open or concealed only that you have the right to go about your business with arms carried on or about the person. I just can't see how a permit is legal in the first place.

TFred said:

Concerning the popularity of Utah permits, no mention of what may be the biggest draw, the fact that the state of Virginia almost literally draws a big red target on the front door of anyone who desires to be able to carry discretely to protect themselves from known threats, such as domestic partners, etc.

TFred

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Just curious why Utah permits are so popular here? As I recall most people in the Midwest opt for a second permit from Florida which is now issued for 7 or 8 years. When I taught in Michigan and Ohio for concealed carry, students used to tell me that they can use the same certificate to obtain a Florida permit. To teach for Utah, one had to get certified with the state, which I never did.

Va permit applications might also be dropping because:

1) the VA market for CHPs has reached near-saturation (most folks that wants one, have one), and

2) we're in a freaking DEPRESSION, with a real unemployment rate of nearly 23%. $100 is a LOT of money when someone is unemployed, and maybe people are more interested in eating and keeping their car running than buying a "permission slip"--especially when VA is ALREADY an OC state...

Dreamer said:

Va permit applications might also be dropping because:

1) the VA market for CHPs has reached near-saturation (most folks that wants one, have one), and

2) we're in a freaking DEPRESSION, with a real unemployment rate of nearly 23%. $100 is a LOT of money when someone is unemployed, and maybe people are more interested in eating and keeping their car running than buying a "permission slip"--especially when VA is ALREADY an OC state...

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I think the market is currently saturated. that's a GOOD thing.

richarcm said:

I think the market is currently saturated. that's a GOOD thing.

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I think the market is saturated also. I have no idea where Philip got the Obama run.

When he was elected, people went further underground. They didn't go out and get an official bulls eye to paste on their backs.

I think more guns were lost in boating accidents the first year of Obama's term, than any time in history.

I think the run was from new gun owners that were flat scared of the unbelievable crime....and were told they needed a CHP.

With all due respect, IMHO, the market is no where near saturated. 228,000 out of over 6 million residents? I don't know the age breakdown, but even conservatively, at least 3 to 4 million of them eligible for a CHP.

I suspect the market is uninformed, not saturated.

TFred

TFred said:

With all due respect, IMHO, the market is no where near saturated. 228,000 out of over 6 million residents? I don't know the age breakdown, but even conservatively, at least 3 to 4 million of them eligible for a CHP.

I suspect the market is uninformed, not saturated.

TFred

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TFred...not everyone wants a CHP. As a matter of fact, look at the percentage of CHP's Vs the Va population.

peter nap said:

TFred...not everyone wants a CHP. As a matter of fact, look at the percentage of CHP's Vs the Va population.

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Certainly it is true, not everyone wants one. However, I would suggest that most people who are eligible are not aware that Virginia is a Shall-Issue state, and that for qualified people, they are fairly easy to get. No way to back that up with statistics, just a hunch.

TFred

TFred said:

Certainly it is true, not everyone wants one. However, I would suggest that most people who are eligible are not aware that Virginia is a Shall-Issue state, and that for qualified people, they are fairly easy to get. No way to back that up with statistics, just a hunch.

TFred

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You may be right but from the conversations I have with people, far more are unaware that OC without a permit is legal.

It's almost standard for someone to say....I thought about getting a permit but don't really want one..Then say "I didn't know you could open carry without one"

It just brightens my day to tell someone how they'll be targeted for government assignation and that the CHP has a chip that'll make you sterile.:banana:

Perhaps a more interesting thought concerning CHPs... and perhaps worthy of another thread is, when will McDonald/Heller finally find its way to repealing the Federal GFSZA? For all practical purposes, one must have a CHP or its equivalent if you want to carry a handgun and not be a felon. If Open Carry is the "Constitutionally protected" form of carry, and no permit is required for that, how can the GFSZA be legal?

For those who have decided to not obtain a permit, does the GFSZA play into your daily thoughts? Does it influence the routes you choose to travel from point A to point B? A significant portion of the population live within a zone, and thus cannot leave their homes while in possession of a gun without breaking the law.

Imagine the run on permits if ever that first person is convicted of under the GFSZA as a lone violation of the law.

I will be a very happy camper on the day that the GFSZA is overturned. It is wrong on too many levels for the government to get away with making a felon out of so many law-abiding citizens on a daily basis. It's not really too far from that old saying, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out." This law makes us all (save 228,000) criminals, and puts us at their discretion to "sort out" at will.

TFred

TFred said:

Perhaps a more interesting thought concerning CHPs... and perhaps worthy of another thread is, when will McDonald/Heller finally find its way to repealing the Federal GFSZA? For all practical purposes, one must have a CHP or its equivalent if you want to carry a handgun and not be a felon. If Open Carry is the "Constitutionally protected" form of carry, and no permit is required for that, how can the GFSZA be legal?

For those who have decided to not obtain a permit, does the GFSZA play into your daily thoughts? Does it influence the routes you choose to travel from point A to point B? A significant portion of the population live within a zone, and thus cannot leave their homes while in possession of a gun without breaking the law.

Imagine the run on permits if ever that first person is convicted of under the GFSZA as a lone violation of the law.

I will be a very happy camper on the day that the GFSZA is overturned. It is wrong on too many levels for the government to get away with making a felon out of so many law-abiding citizens on a daily basis. It's not really too far from that old saying, "Kill them all, and let God sort them out." This law makes us all (save 228,000) criminals, and puts us at their discretion to "sort out" at will.

TFred

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To be honest TFred, I never give it a thought. It's not n enforceable law and I don't worry about it. I don't fault those that do and hopefully, it will be cleaned from the books soon.

Just figured out the new awesome multi-quote feature!

TFred said:

Certainly it is true, not everyone wants one. However, I would suggest that most people who are eligible are not aware that Virginia is a Shall-Issue state, and that for qualified people, they are fairly easy to get. No way to back that up with statistics, just a hunch.

TFred

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I think your hunch is probably correct.

peter nap said:

You may be right but from the conversations I have with people, far more are unaware that OC without a permit is legal.

It's almost standard for someone to say....I thought about getting a permit but don't really want one..Then say "I didn't know you could open carry without one"

It just brightens my day to tell someone how they'll be targeted for government assignation and that the CHP has a chip that'll make you sterile.:banana:

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Absolutely.

Maybe People understand the permits are not needed.

Dreamer said:

Va permit applications might also be dropping because:

1) the VA market for CHPs has reached near-saturation (most folks that wants one, have one), and

2) we're in a freaking DEPRESSION, with a real unemployment rate of nearly 23%. $100 is a LOT of money when someone is unemployed, and maybe people are more interested in eating and keeping their car running than buying a "permission slip"--especially when VA is ALREADY an OC state...

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Amen Dreamer, Amen!

Why feed the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2) when the right is free?

Why hide your firearm as if you are ashamed of carrying it?

Open Carry your firearm. The entire experience is different. The feeling is one of......Freedom!

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

I can't find long-term monthly stats for the issuance on CHPs in VA.

Anyone know how the first half of 2009 stack up against prior years?

It may be down from a record high, but still be strong.

Are there more permits today than yesterday?

If the answer is yes, then end of story.

The numbers every year have grown geometrically since the days (pre 1995) of may issue and CWP.

TFred said:

Article: Demand for gun permits drops


TFred

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No - Heavy run to get permits tapers to continued brisk growth.

From a one time figure of approx. 3,000 to nearly a quarter of a million CHPs is NOT a drop in demand.

More and more people are recognizing the merits and choosing to be responsible citizens. The march continues.

Toad said:

One would have to think that since the McDonald case (re)affirmed the 2nd applies to the states that it would also be on the same level as the other Amendments. Particularly when dealing with privacy issues. Could it not be argued that the permit requirement is somehow a violation of the 4th?
In-order to exercise the 'bear arms' part as the individual sees fit one must submit to a low level type of search. When applying for a permit one must give certain personal information and are actually informing the Government that indeed you possess guns; things they have no business knowing if one has not committed a criminal act. Since a crime has not been committed shouldn't this information be strictly controlled and no public discloser allowed.
I may be looking at it all wrong but the idea of a permit is unconstitutional in my view and without a permit to 'bear arms as I see fit' the privacy issues are remedied. The definition of bear arms makes absolutely no differentiation of open or concealed only that you have the right to go about your business with arms carried on or about the person. I just can't see how a permit is legal in the first place.

Click to expand...

Excellent question.

I don't think the government including you in its own non-public database would be a privacy violation under current law. See Whalen v. Roe.

But if the government requires you to make public your private information such as an SSN as a condition for the exercise of a fundamental right, that could be a Second Amendment violation. Mandatory disclosures as a condition for the exercise of the fundamental right to vote have been struck down, for example. See Greidinger v. Davis.

Does CC cross the "fundamental rights" threshold? Put another way, post-McDonald, is "shall issue" now a constitutional command?

That -- it seems to me -- is a question that the courts must answer first.