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Thread: is unloaded concealed carry legal?

  1. #1
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    is unloaded concealed carry legal?

    my ccw has expired and I don't have the money to requal, but open carry has caused me problems that I don't need.
    I live in a small town and some folks can make sure you don't get hired - I need to find work but open carry is scaring ppl.
    can you conceal an unloaded gun with no permit? and carry a mag weak side?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quite simply, no!

    A firearm is still a firearm even if it's not loaded. The NRS that defines “Concealed” with regard to firearms is NRS 202.350 and also addresses manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions. The entire statute can be found here.

    The term “Concealed Weapon” is listed under Paragraph 8. (a) and reads as follows:

    8. As used in this section:
    a) “Concealed weapon” means a weapon described in this section that is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.

  3. #3
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    An unloaded concealed gun is the same as a loaded concealed gun under the law. It is a category C felony.

  4. #4
    28kfps
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    We are seeing the answer to the question however, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to carry an unloaded firearm. To pull a firearm for a lethal force issue without the ability to follow through might encourage the bad guy who originally planned forcing one to hand over a wallet to now thinking he needs to shoot before he gets shot. How fast can a person pull their weapon, garb the magazine, insert it into the weapon, jack a round, and acquire a site picture? The training I have had said there is only one-way to carry a firearm that is fully charged.

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    true enough

    but its better than no gun at all

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrsjhnsn View Post
    but its better than no gun at all
    Yes, you can club your armed assailant into submission, or perhaps you could attach some kind of retractile cable and throw it at them.

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    quite the fantasy you got there

    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    We are seeing the answer to the question however, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to carry an unloaded firearm. To pull a firearm for a lethal force issue without the ability to follow through might encourage the bad guy who originally planned forcing one to hand over a wallet to now thinking he needs to shoot before he gets shot. How fast can a person pull their weapon, garb the magazine, insert it into the weapon, jack a round, and acquire a site picture? The training I have had said there is only one-way to carry a firearm that is fully charged.
    I ccw'd for years- just happen to be short on cash-the obummer economy and all & do not have the money to do the requal. I've done quite a bit of training on lethal force & have worked both at Loomis and in really seedy SF crime ridden neighborhoods as armed security- but besides all that- I was also in the army in the seventies and raised in a crummy new york city neighborhood and if I hadn't situational awareness instilled in me at a young age I would have died. Yet all of a sudden-due to an expiration date on a card I will just be a hapless victim with no idea of tactics or strategy.

    I'm not saying you're wrong ( in the scenario you've painted ) but there are simple rules for a gun fight- the first rule is don't be there, 2nd is have a gun, third is have a rifle.

    I -100% of the time I ccw and open carry have a round in the chamber & I think it is stupid not to, I am quite simply looking for a freaking legal way to have a gun. I am not looking for advice on hypothetical situations. I just want to have a legal way to carry my gun, again just in case you are not clear on what I was asking ...a legal way to carry my gun.

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    wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Yes, you can club your armed assailant into submission, or perhaps you could attach some kind of retractile cable and throw it at them.
    never ever strike a person with your side arm, you can mar the finish!

    nevada carry, I know your just making a joke and all but It's really not appreciated- open carry and job interviews don't mix. If I owned my own business I would insist on my employees being armed, when I had money I gave lots of it to the NRA to become a life member, thanks for your earlier answer though... you know I have to come up with $$ for insurance or NV will ding me for 250 and I'm not working- I'm trying real hard to be legal and do not have a glove compartment or anything like it on my motorcycle- stupid jokes are really annoying. I'm just a financially struggling gun rights enthusiast and snarky answers are a pita.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Remmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrsjhnsn View Post
    I ccw'd for years- just happen to be short on cash-the obummer economy and all & do not have the money to do the requal. I've done quite a bit of training on lethal force & have worked both at Loomis and in really seedy SF crime ridden neighborhoods as armed security- but besides all that- I was also in the army in the seventies and raised in a crummy new york city neighborhood and if I hadn't situational awareness instilled in me at a young age I would have died. Yet all of a sudden-due to an expiration date on a card I will just be a hapless victim with no idea of tactics or strategy.

    I'm not saying you're wrong ( in the scenario you've painted ) but there are simple rules for a gun fight- the first rule is don't be there, 2nd is have a gun, third is have a rifle.

    I -100% of the time I ccw and open carry have a round in the chamber & I think it is stupid not to, I am quite simply looking for a freaking legal way to have a gun. I am not looking for advice on hypothetical situations. I just want to have a legal way to carry my gun, again just in case you are not clear on what I was asking ...a legal way to carry my gun.
    You have three legal options which have already been discussed:

    1. Open Carry
    2. Concealed Carry
    3. In your vehicle (of which is the problem in your case)

    What sort of bike do you have? When i owned my numerous sport bikes I kept my sidearm in that location. Sure its not as secure or easily accessible in a car but what is when your a rider? there are places on all bikes that you could make a hide for a sidearm but your going to have to think outside the box. It is definitely a predicament when your only mode of transpiration is a motorcycle. But, that is the trade off for feeling that wind in your hair. There are several members on this forum that ride and OC at the same time perhaps they can chime in to give you suggestions on what they do when they dont OC their weapon.

  10. #10
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    tank bag

    get one that straps on top of the gas tank,
    carry unloaded, and zipped up, i think thats good in nevada.
    when you get where ever, load up and open carry!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  11. #11
    28kfps
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrsjhnsn View Post
    I ccw'd for years- just happen to be short on cash-the obummer economy and all & do not have the money to do the requal. I've done quite a bit of training on lethal force & have worked both at Loomis and in really seedy SF crime ridden neighborhoods as armed security- but besides all that- I was also in the army in the seventies and raised in a crummy new york city neighborhood and if I hadn't situational awareness instilled in me at a young age I would have died. Yet all of a sudden-due to an expiration date on a card I will just be a hapless victim with no idea of tactics or strategy.

    I'm not saying you're wrong ( in the scenario you've painted ) but there are simple rules for a gun fight- the first rule is don't be there, 2nd is have a gun, third is have a rifle.

    I -100% of the time I ccw and open carry have a round in the chamber & I think it is stupid not to, I am quite simply looking for a freaking legal way to have a gun. I am not looking for advice on hypothetical situations. I just want to have a legal way to carry my gun, again just in case you are not clear on what I was asking ...a legal way to carry my gun.
    Ok then, my mistake. I thought I was replying to the statement I did see in the original post” I need to find work but open carry is scaring ppl. can you conceal an unloaded gun with no permit? And carry a mag weak side?” leading me to believe you were talking about carrying an unloaded gun. I did not realize I was to reply to the” I am not looking for advice on hypothetical situations. I just want to have a legal way to carry my gun, again just in case you are not clear on what I was asking ...a legal way to carry my gun.” Which I did not see in the original post. I believe it would be legal to conceal it without the CCW if you dismantle it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Remmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    get one that straps on top of the gas tank,
    carry unloaded, and zipped up, i think thats good in nevada.
    when you get where ever, load up and open carry!
    This would be a good idea, IANAL however this could be one of those areas as tank bags can be easily removed and some are built to become backpacks after being removed. Would be a very interesting case if one were charged with concealing. I do not have the cite right now but its pretty common knowledge that even a gym bag or brief case that has your weapon in it, and placed on the back seat of your car is considered concealed. I would venture to say LEO would try to make a case that a tank bag is like strapping a gym bag to your motorcycle. I personally dont see it that way and find no reason not to be able to throw your weapon into a tank bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy View Post
    This would be a good idea, IANAL however this could be one of those areas as tank bags can be easily removed and some are built to become backpacks after being removed. Would be a very interesting case if one were charged with concealing. I do not have the cite right now but its pretty common knowledge that even a gym bag or brief case that has your weapon in it, and placed on the back seat of your car is considered concealed. I would venture to say LEO would try to make a case that a tank bag is like strapping a gym bag to your motorcycle. I personally dont see it that way and find no reason not to be able to throw your weapon into a tank bag.
    I'd like to see this cite when you get a moment. As I read it:
    NRS 202.3653 Definitions. As used in NRS 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, unless the context otherwise requires:
    1. “Concealed firearm” means a loaded or unloaded pistol, revolver or other firearm which is carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation.
    Since the gym bag or briefcase is not "upon a person" whether in a back seat, or strapped to the motorcycle, by the definition set within the NRS, it is not a concealed firearm and is therefore not subject to prosecution as such.

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    thanks

    thanks for the replies, I have carried in a tank bag and that would probably be the same as a glove compartment under NRS- however once you take it off its concealed carry.

    A lot to think about and thanks again.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Remmy's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by gmijackso View Post
    I'd like to see this cite when you get a moment. As I read it:


    Since the gym bag or briefcase is not "upon a person" whether in a back seat, or strapped to the motorcycle, by the definition set within the NRS, it is not a concealed firearm and is therefore not subject to prosecution as such.
    It would be great if the NRS read with language that was not open to interpretation or vague, however here is the AGs official stance on this exact subject. Which concludes; "upon a person" would encompass items and or containers carried by the individual such as a purse or briefcase etc.

    Taken from Thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hlight=vehicle

    OPINION NO. 93-14 CRIMINAL LAW; FIREARMS; WEAPONS: The language of NRS
    205.350 would be narrowly construed to include only those concealed weapons which are actually
    on the person or in a container carried by the person.
    Carson City, June 21, 1993
    Mr. Ben Graham, Deputy District Attorney, Clark County District, Attorney's Office, 200 S. Third
    Street - Seventh Floor, Las Vegas, Nevada 89155

    Dear Mr. Graham:

    This is in response to your opinion request regarding construction of Nevada's concealed
    weapon statute.

    QUESTION

    What constitutes carrying a concealed weapon?
    NRS 202.350 states in part:
    1. It is unlawful for any person within this state to:
    ....
    (b) Carry concealed upon his person any:
    (1) Explosive substance, other than ammunition or any components thereof;
    (2) Dirk, dagger or dangerous knife;
    (3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon; or
    (4) Knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle.

    FACTS

    The language of your opinion request suggests that your main inquiry deals with the proximity of the weapon to the person. Your letter states: A weapon carried on the person is obvious. The question gets more complicated with a weapon in a purse, briefcase, carry-on luggage and such when it is in fact carried by an individual. Place those containers on the floor next to the person. Put the same container in the passenger portion of a vehicle, the weapon in the glove box, console, under the seat? Your letter refers to several different scenarios and situations regarding the proximity of the weapon under which application of NRS 205.350 might be urged.

    ANALYSIS

    Our research has not revealed any case in which the Nevada Supreme Court has interpreted the precise language of NRS 202.350. However, as noted below, that language would have to be strictly construed. If the legislature's desire is to expand the statute to cover circumstances where a concealed weapon is immediately accessible, the language, such as "concealed on or about his person" would be required.

    Penal statutes are subject to strict construction, Sheriff v. Smith, 91 Nev. 729, 542 P.2d 440 (1975), and "a statute which either forbids or requires the doing of an act in terms so vague that men of common intelligence must necessarily guess at its meaning and differ as to its application, violates the first essential of due process." Sheriff v. Luqman, 101 Nev. 149, 155, 697 P.2d 107 (1985) (quoting Connally v. General Constr. Co., 269 U.S. 385, 391 (1926)). See Bradvica v. State, 104 Nev. 475, 477, 760 P.2d 139 (1988).

    Thus a narrow interpretation of the applicable language of NRS 205.350 is appropriate. People v. Pugach, 204 N.E.2d 176 (N.Y. Ct. App. 1964). A gun discovered in a briefcase being carried by a defendant was "concealed upon the person" and was within a statute proscribing carrying weapons concealed upon the person. A hand gun concealed in a suitcase and carried by a man is sufficiently "upon his person" to constitute a violation under a statute making it a misdemeanor to carry a concealed weapon on the person. People v. Dunn, 132 Cal. Rptr. 921, 922 (Cal. Ct. App. 1976). The phrase "upon the person" means that an article is either in contact with a person, or is carried in the clothing. Commonwealth v. Linzetti, 97 Pa. Super. 126 (1929). The word "upon" signifies close contact. A loaded revolver underneath a cushion in the rear seat of an automobile on which the defendant was sitting was not "upon the person," so defendant's conduct was not within the meaning of an act prohibiting carrying a deadly weapon concealed "upon the person." Id. Thus the phrases "concealed upon person," "upon his person," and "upon the person" have been interpreted to include weapons that are in contact with the individual or are being carried within a container by an individual.

    On the other hand, language such as "concealed on or about person" or "concealed on or about his person" has been interpreted to extend the proximity of the weapon necessary to constitute a violation of the statute. In State v. Scanlan, 273 S.W. 1062 (Mo. 1925), where the indictment
    charged the defendant with carrying a weapon concealed about his person, the jury was permitted to find him guilty if he carried the deadly weapon concealed upon his person since the word "about" includes everything included in the word "upon" and may, in addition, include much more.

    The words "on or about the person" have been applied to weapons concealed in such proximity to the person so as to be convenient to access and within immediate physical reach. Hampton v. Commonwealth, 78 S.W.2d. 748, 749 (Ky. 1934). See also Prello v. State, 168 N.E. 135, 137 (Oh.
    1929); Collier v. Commonwealth Ky., 453 S.W.2d 600, 601 (Ky. 1970). A loaded pistol locked in a glove compartment of an automobile which the defendant owned and was driving was "concealed on or about the person" of the defendant as defined by a concealed weapon statute. State v. Goodwin, 169 N.W.2d 270, 273 (Neb. 1969). It does not appear that the word "about" is always interchangeable with "on." See W. M. Moldoff, Annotation, Offense of Carrying a Concealed
    Weapon as Effected by Manner of Carrying or Place of Concealment, 43 A.L.R.2d 492, § 4(d)(1955).

    To violate a statute prohibiting carrying firearms "concealed on or about the person," the weapon must be actually concealed on the person or in such close proximity that it can be readily used as though on the person, without appreciable change in his position. See People v. Liss, 94 N.E.2d 320, 322-23 (Ill. 1950).

    Obviously, each factual situation will be different and may be interpreted differently according to language used in the statute. It seems relatively clear that the use of the words "on or about his person" extends the area from which the defendant could obtain the weapon. However, this language has limitations as well. In one case, the evidence showed that the defendant was riding in a wagon in which there were two other persons. A quarrel arose between the defendant and one of the others. The defendant took a pistol from a satchel under the seat. These facts were not
    sufficient to warrant a conviction of carrying a pistol "concealed on or about his person." Commonwealth v. Sturgeon, 37 S.W. 680 (Ky. 1896). There was no evidence as to whom the satchel belonged. There was no evidence as to who placed it in the wagon, or to whom the wagon belonged. Id. Obviously, various other factors need to be considered in determining whether a concealed weapon is "about" a person. However, that inquiry is beyond the scope of this opinion.

    CONCLUSION

    It is our opinion that the language of NRS 202.350 would be narrowly construed to include
    only those concealed weapons which are actually on the person or in a container carried by the
    person.

    Sincerely,
    FRANKIE SUE DEL PAPA
    Attorney General
    By: ROBERT E. WIELAND
    Deputy Attorney General
    NRS 202.350 Manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions.
    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355 and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:
    (a) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend or possess any knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a switchblade knife, blackjack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckles;
    (b) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend, possess or use a machine gun or a silencer, unless authorized by federal law;
    (c) With the intent to inflict harm upon the person of another, possess or use a nunchaku or trefoil; or
    (d) Carry concealed upon his or her person any:
    (1) Explosive substance, other than ammunition or any components thereof;
    (2) Dirk, dagger or machete;
    (3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon; or
    (4) Knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle.
    Last edited by Remmy; 07-14-2010 at 12:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy View Post
    It would be great if the NRS read with language that was not open to interpretation or vague, however here is the AGs official stance on this exact subject. Which concludes; "upon a person" would encompass items and or containers carried by the individual such as a purse or briefcase etc.

    Taken from Thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hlight=vehicle
    I believe you've missed my point. I agree that carrying in a bag, purse, briefcase, etc is concealment when carried upon the person or in the terms you used "by the individual". Said purse, bag, briefcase being in your vehicle while you drive it is neither upon the person nor carried by the individual, therefore it is not concealed. If you are wearing said bag, purse, briefcase while driving, then it is concealed as it is then upon you.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Remmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmijackso View Post
    I believe you've missed my point. I agree that carrying in a bag, purse, briefcase, etc is concealment when carried upon the person or in the terms you used "by the individual". Said purse, bag, briefcase being in your vehicle while you drive it is neither upon the person nor carried by the individual, therefore it is not concealed. If you are wearing said bag, purse, briefcase while driving, then it is concealed as it is then upon you.
    did not miss or overlook your point, however in the AG opinion states:

    To violate a statute prohibiting carrying firearms "concealed on or about the person," the weapon must be actually concealed on the person or in such close proximity that it can be readily used as though on the person, without appreciable change in his position. See People v. Liss, 94 N.E.2d 320, 322-23 (Ill. 1950).
    Im not going to get in a ******* match over this, there is no blanket answer thus an endless debate of what ifs, and interpretation. The only thing that will ever settle this would be revised language of the NRS. From my interpretation, and that is all it is; MINE, of the NRS as well as the AGs opinion a bag sitting on the seat that holds your firearm is considered "close proximity". Will you be charged for violating the NRS 100% of the time? probably not but its a roll of the dice I will not take. This is Vegas after all were people get murdered for calling 911 to get a suicide hotline number.

    For the new topic at hand I would OC while riding my bike, and upon parking I would take extra time, since we should be doing that anyways as a two wheel vehicle operator to secure my weapon in hard cased saddle bags or in the tail section under the seat which is meant for storage and lockable. If you did not feel comfortable OCing into wherever you were going. Of course you'll want to use discretion, as well as some type of quick disconnect feature that both blackhawk, and safariland have solutions for so that the weapon never has to leave th e holster to be stored. YMMV at the end of the day its the carriers decision and choice how to, when to, and what to carry always.

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    thanks

    thank you for the great analysis, the NRS needs to be updated, it is an election year-perhaps we can pressure assembly candidate to get better language for these codes.

    I have a tank bag but if I take it off the bike then I'm not legal and after reading this thread may not even be legal with it in the tank bag while riding. Unfortunately I do not have luggage racks & my seat uses bolts & anyone can take it off ( though it has never happened)

    I'm currently hoping to find an instructor who doesn't mind trading .223 ammo for the requal class, as I have half a case ( sold the dang gun though )

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    Perhaps try selling the ammo on Craigslist? I don't know if they have a policy against it however. But then you get a chance at finding somebody needing the ammo to give you the cash to re-qual.

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