kwikrnu
Banned
A pat down with no RAS other than seeing a weapon...
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Telling an officer?
- Thread starter Southpawtact
- Start date
A pat down with no RAS other than seeing a weapon...
aegri_mentis
Regular Member
To me, seeing someone OC is in no way RAS. It would be like pulling someone over for obeying the speed limit.
kwikrnu
Banned
Like one of the posters above me stated you're a contradiction.
RussP
Regular Member
Leonard, you forget that the totality of circumstances surrounding an encounter will dictate how law enforcement acts and reacts.
You want law enforcement to operate in a black and white environment. Many law enforcement officers on several forums have told you that the real world is not always black and white.
Someone not knowing you, not knowing anything about you, seeing you carrying as you did at Radnor and Belle Meade will probably pat you down for drugs.
aegri_mentis said he normally would not pat down an open carrier, but knowing about you and your behavior, he would [make an exception and] pat you down. He's not contradicting himself. He's saying you're special and would receive special treatment.
aegri_mentis, correct me if I am wrong, but if an officer disarms an OCer for officer safety, wouldn't it be proper to pat down that person for additional weapons, for officer safety?
Last edited:
hotrod
Regular Member
RussP you have made the statement I have preached for years. LEO's can not operate in a black and white enviorment. That being said they must be able to articulate not only to the courts but to any suspect their reason for detention. As we all know, LEO's began with questions rather than answers. That is only to elicite information that can be used against the suspect later. When an officer finds you open carrying he begins the interrogation with "why are you carrying that?". That is why you have the right not to speak or declare you are carrying or why you are carrying. It would be nice, though, when an officer approaches he is open and says "Hello, hope your having a good day" rather than beginning an investigation whether I am doing something wrong or hoping to find something I am doing wrong. I believe this is the biggest problem between the police and the carrying public at large.
kwikrnu
Banned
It is black and white. They either have RAS or they don't. They either respect that open carriers don't have to give them the time of day or they don't.
RussP
Regular Member
All true, sir.
RussP
Regular Member
Thundar
Regular Member
The carrying of a firearm is a fundamental right. No police officer should engage in actions that infringe the citizen's right for simply exercising a fundamental right.
The dribble about police are humans and just want to go home at the end of their shift is propaganda, not reasoned thought. Initiating an advesarial contact with an armed citizen that has not been seen to break any laws over the macho - I am the only one that should have a gun attitude - is the problem, not the LAC. If the job is too stressful or too dangerous for a cop the he/she should go flip burgers at Burger King or just get out of the line of work.
Most police understand this, however, some choose to ignore this and some try to circumvent it. Make life hell for those police that do not respect your 2A rights.
RussP
Regular Member
Why did you quote my post? Your post is about something completely different.
I do have a question about part of your comment. Is this also true?
True?
Gunslinger
Regular Member
A point I've made repeatedly. Although under no legal duty to do so here in Colorado, I would advise the cop I was carrying on my person and give him my CCW at a traffic stop. In so doing, I am demonstrating that I am a good guy and offering substantive proof of that. I would expect him to reciprocrate and demonstrate he is a decent, responsible police officer. Having attended Law School and majoring in US Constitutional Law as an Undergrad, I know my rights and what is unlawful activity on the part of the police much better than most--including the vast majority of cops. But the stop isn't a contest to measure credentials. If I was speeding, I expect to get out of the ticket by demonstrating an overriding attitude of being the 'good guy' I mention. And I generally have. If the cop is a dick, I'll go to court and cut him up, as most cops who are dicks are also stupid and incompetent when facing superiour "firepower" in court. (I beat a radar detector ticket in Virginia, when mere possession is prima facie proof of the violation, and not many can say that.) But the point is, if he's a decent cop and the offense is trivial, viz., speeding at a not unreasonable over the posted limit, I prefer to drive away after a not terribly unpleasant experience knowing he can ticket the next guy to make his quota. Why not do what makes sense to accomplish this? And, I must point out, I'm back on the original thread.
RussP
Regular Member
Gunslinger, I have a couple of questions for you.
Speeding, what is "a not unreasonable over the posted limit"? How much over the limit is reasonable to you?
How did you beat the radar detector ticket here in Virginia?
neuroblades
Regular Member
This is an EXCELLENT article! Thoughtfully written and detailed to the letter, it details all of the things I experienced when I worked in Florida in the late 80's and early 90's. I even had to chuckle at some of the things written because I had done them (eg. stopping with back to the wall). *LOL* If ALL LEO read and followed this guide to dealing with law abiding OC/CC individuals, I'd be willing to venture that 98%, if not all encounters would go smoothly. Granted, there'll ALWAYS be at least one LEO and/or one OC/CC'er that mucks it up.
Let this serve as bible for those of us OC & CC'ers as well as those under the colours!
neuroblades
Regular Member
It depends upon the State. I won't tell in Tennessee because there is no requiring the cop be informed. If they ask for the carry permit you're supposed to show it under State law.
All the cops know who I am, they've got a list of my employers, my work history, and cars with tag #'s.
I have but one simple query about your BOLO posted here. Why are you carrying a pistol with an orange painted front? No offense meant here but when I was working in Florida, had I encountered that in any sitaution, that would've been a RED FLAG to me. While you would've been treated suspiciously at first, pending NIC check, if you ran clean, you would've been released but this would've been in the reports.
Just saying.
kwikrnu
Banned
Why not? Tennessee law doesn't require concealment. Tennessee law doesn't prohibit custom painted firearms.
RussP
Regular Member
neuroblades, figured you'd appreciate the real answer he gave right after the event...
Edited to add that the bold emphasis in the quoted post was done by kwikrnu, not me.
Last edited:
neuroblades
Regular Member
While I personally have no issue with custom paint on a sidearm, to paint the front orange in hopes of "fooling" LEO and others is ultimately a DANGEROUS thing to do. This is NOT seen as custom paint by LEO, this is seen as trying to pass a deadly weapon as a toy and seriously frowned upon by all.
Due to the sitaution, I can not go into detail about the incident but on a shock raid/bust of a drug house, we moved fast and silent, breaching the house on 2 sides at the same time and catching all involved without incident. The problem arose though as the house was being cleared. A youth of one of the drug makers was hiding and failed to heed the initial warnings when the house was breached. The youth popped up with what appeared to be a 357 magnum from behind a doorway. The individuals involved issued 2 more warnings in both English and the native language of those in the house, the youth did not respond. They were issued 2 more warnings to disarm to which they did not! What happened next still burns my memories, the youth clicked the weapon and his finger moved to the trigger. The youth was riddled with 8 shots, while not a massive amount, it was enough. After the investigation that followed in the wake of this incident, all involved were cleared thanks to video. The saddest part, the gun the youth had, was just a toy replica of a real gun! This incident DID NOT have to occur and just goes to show that "trying" to fool someone with a orange tipped weapon, is foolish and reckless behaviour on your part. It's no wonder that BOLO was issued!
Last edited:
kwikrnu
Banned
1. I did not touch my handgun.
2. When asked by the ranger if it was real I answered truthfully.
3. When my carry permit was demanded I showed it.
4. My handgun was never pointed at anyone.
5. My finger was never on the trigger.
So, exactly how are my actions anywhere close to equivalant to the actions of the youth in your story?
neuroblades
Regular Member
I'm not saying or insinuating that you're actions per se were likened to those of the youth, but the overall example is still nonetheless true.
Undertaker
Regular Member
Telling vs. Respecting
I have read this thread many times over and have been very hesitant to reply. My profession is not in the law enforcement field yet I probably work more closely with local and state law enforcement officials than most other professions. Not on a daily basis but on a case be case situation. I've lived my 'job' for the last 30 years and have learned that RESPECT goes a long way. What I want to print may not set easy with all and my not be PC in this day and time, I direct it towards those of you in law enforcement positions so I mean absolutely no disrespect in any way. Gentlemen, I do not envy your profession at all, I know that there are times you MUST judge the book by the cover, what I don't understand is that plain logic should tell anyone that RESPECT is earned. When you meet me and I treat you with respect, 99% of the time you will reciprocate. I can't find any logic in the fact that an adult male carrying a firearm with the tip painted orange would be doing anything other than trying to draw attention to himself which, at that point, anyone (ie: Law enforcement officer) would envoke the Gestalt Principle into his own thinking (look at the whole picture, judge the book by the cover). I judge people every day by the way they act, look, and present themselves. You, in law enforcement MUST do the same in this day and time ["it aint' Mayberry RFD out there"]. I trust you and RESPECT you because I NEED YOU. I also carry my personal protection because I have a right to be protected and I know that you cannot be in all places at all times, but when you ARE where I am, I NEED you on MY side. Therefore I, as a law abiding US citizen, have no issues answering questions directed to me by an officer of the law regarding my personal protection. Remember guys, as Bob Dylan said 40 years ago "Oh the times, they are a changin'". Thanks for letting me rant.
I have read this thread many times over and have been very hesitant to reply. My profession is not in the law enforcement field yet I probably work more closely with local and state law enforcement officials than most other professions. Not on a daily basis but on a case be case situation. I've lived my 'job' for the last 30 years and have learned that RESPECT goes a long way. What I want to print may not set easy with all and my not be PC in this day and time, I direct it towards those of you in law enforcement positions so I mean absolutely no disrespect in any way. Gentlemen, I do not envy your profession at all, I know that there are times you MUST judge the book by the cover, what I don't understand is that plain logic should tell anyone that RESPECT is earned. When you meet me and I treat you with respect, 99% of the time you will reciprocate. I can't find any logic in the fact that an adult male carrying a firearm with the tip painted orange would be doing anything other than trying to draw attention to himself which, at that point, anyone (ie: Law enforcement officer) would envoke the Gestalt Principle into his own thinking (look at the whole picture, judge the book by the cover). I judge people every day by the way they act, look, and present themselves. You, in law enforcement MUST do the same in this day and time ["it aint' Mayberry RFD out there"]. I trust you and RESPECT you because I NEED YOU. I also carry my personal protection because I have a right to be protected and I know that you cannot be in all places at all times, but when you ARE where I am, I NEED you on MY side. Therefore I, as a law abiding US citizen, have no issues answering questions directed to me by an officer of the law regarding my personal protection. Remember guys, as Bob Dylan said 40 years ago "Oh the times, they are a changin'". Thanks for letting me rant.