• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Telling an officer?

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
I'm not saying or insinuating that you're actions per se were likened to those of the youth, but the overall example is still nonetheless true.

There are no similarities between me and the youth in your example.

He failed to heed commands of law enforcement as they breached the house.
He popped out of hiding with a gun.
He failed to heed more warnings.
He pointed a gun at someone.
He moved his finger towards the trigger.

What does that example have to do with me?
I did not act reckless nor foolish, and obeyed the law and police commands.


This thread has to do with the responsibility of telling police of a weapon in general, but mostly driving. Not when swat is raiding your house.
 
Last edited:

devildoc5

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
791
Location
Somewhere over run with mud(s)
1. I did not touch my handgun.
2. When asked by the ranger if it was real I answered truthfully.
3. When my carry permit was demanded I showed it.
4. My handgun was never pointed at anyone.
5. My finger was never on the trigger.

So, exactly how are my actions anywhere close to equivalant to the actions of the youth in your story?

Ok I am WAY out of my "forum jurisdiction and normal hangout" but I just could not resist.

It appears to me as A FAN of OC and a regular board member and frequent poster that you are NOT following the "law abiding citizen model"

The reason I state this is you appear to be going out of your way to be a PITA.

Yes I understand you have the right to protect your 4th Amendment rights and if you chose to I respect you for that, just not my exact choice.

You have stated previously that you are in effect "openly challenging" LEO for lack of a better term. From your posts it seems as if you are TRYING to pick fights with them and get into confrontations with them. (just my opinion btw no disrespect meant)

You are obviously trying to hide or conceal something. Who in their right mind would try to make a handgun look like a toy? Do you want to be in a situation where you need it and instead of the attacker seeing a gun and BACKING OFF and the situation becoming a nonviolent one and thus a non issue (well except for giving LEO a description to pick his sorry a$$ up) or would you rather pull it and have the BG laugh at you and then it become a NEEDLESS bloody mess?

Yes I know do not unholster your sidearm unless you intend to fire it, however the mere presence of a firearm can be an incredible equalizer and even if you intend to fire it you might not HAVE to. However with a "fake gun" you will indeed guaranteed have to use it as most BG's would just laugh at you.

Also by painting it orange like a toy gun you seem to be DESIRING to create a reasonable suspicion for the officer to "detain" you. remember that Reasonable Suspicion is defined as "that which would cause a normal person to conclude that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences"

Intentionally altering a guns tip to make it appear to be a toy gun would cause most normal people to be suspicious and believe that the reasoning behind performing such a "customization" is to make it appear nonlethal and thus provide a better opportunity to cause harm.

And about the instance of how this relates to the youth in the story: Both of you are acting in a suspicious and inappropriate immature manner. The difference is that the youth had an excuse: his young age......
 

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
It appears to me as A FAN of OC and a regular board member and frequent poster that you are NOT following the "law abiding citizen model"

To me the law abiding citizen model is a law abiding citizen. That's it for me in this thread.

I don't inform an officer if I have a gun unless required by law.
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
We travel to Kentucky regularly visiting family and friends. While I've never had an official encounter with law enforcement there, my plan is to do just as I've done here in Virginia - tell them I have a carry permit and am carrying.

I do know a few law enforcement types in Kentucky. They are firearm enthusiasts, so their opinions are positively influenced by that, but they have no problems with citizens carrying. Some could care less if the carrier tells them. Others appreciate it.

All say that a bad attitude coming from the carrier can turn a good encounter into something else.

Y'all stay safe...
 

neuroblades

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
1,240
Location
, Kentucky, USA

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
One good reason not to tell is that any information taken may later be entered into a database. The LEISP, information sharing, is designed for cops to take all the info from a stop, enter it into a database so they can track individuals.You may be a soccer mom or you may be a terrorist, but you'll be tracked.
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
I'm new to open carry and have a quick question. If you get pulled over by the police, are you obligated to tell them that you are armed? If so, when would you tell them?

Thanks in advance.:)
One good reason not to tell is that any information taken may later be entered into a database. The LEISP, information sharing, is designed for cops to take all the info from a stop, enter it into a database so they can track individuals.You may be a soccer mom or you may be a terrorist, but you'll be tracked.
Telling an officer you're are armed gets entered into a database? Okaaaaay...
 
Last edited:

Thos.Jefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
288
Location
just south of the river, Kentucky, USA
Telling an officer you're are armed gets entered into a database? Okaaaaay...

They (gov't) have admitted that they listen in on our phone calls, read our e-mails, track our cell phones and also where we surf on the internet so what is so cynical about presumeing that they would enter us into a database as relates to being armed? I would say that either you are very naive Russ or you're a shill. Which is it?
 
Last edited:

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
They (gov't) have admitted that they listen in on our phone calls, read our e-mails, track our cell phones and also where we surf on the internet so what is so cynical about presumeing that they would enter us into a database as relates to being armed? I would say that either you are very naive Russ or you're a shill. Which is it?


LE does not appreciate legal open carry. They like to keep tabs on open carriers. I'm not the only one who is in these databases. Back in 2007 there were at least 35 million people recorded. It was just getting statrted at that point. How many do you think there are now? To deny all this is ignorant.
Didn't one of the the administrators of this forum get entered into the N-dex or one doj because he called the police in California? All of that info is part of the LEISP and is in a database.

"an individual identifying himself as a co-founder of "OpenCarry.org" called Turlock Police Department and suggested that Turlock Police Officers required training on the "right to carry firearms". OpenCarry.org also posted a message from an individual, “CA_Libertarian”, who claimed he was "illegally detained and harassed" by Turlock Police Officers. The website posting suggested that the incident was being reviewed by an attorney for the purposes of pursuing a civil rights violation action and that there was an audiotape recording of the entire incident. In addition, the individual confronted and detained by officers was not a Turlock resident and his posting related his experiences of openly carrying firearms throughout different communities. Based on a review of their website, it appears that the Open Carry movement is spreading to this region. The founders are based on the east coast and much of the activity has been in that area, but recent activity in the central valley and some of the forum postings indicate that law enforcement agencies in California may experience an increase in the number of Open Carry encounters in their jurisdictions. If you logon to their website www.opencarry.org and click on "Our Forum" at the top left, then scroll down to "California", you will see that there are 7 pages of postings, all with a sizeable number of replies. Included in the postings are the Turlock P.D. incident and the Sacramento P.D. incident (including the High Priority internal memo) as well as meetings and "meet and greets" that have either taken place or are being planned throughout
California."


taken from a leo bulletin sacramento Ca regional terrorism threat assessment center 2008.
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
They (gov't) have admitted that they listen in on our phone calls, read our e-mails, track our cell phones and also where we surf on the internet so what is so cynical about presumeing that they would enter us into a database as relates to being armed? I would say that either you are very naive Russ or you're a shill. Which is it?
Exactly what are the mechanics involved in entering an affirmative answer to the question, "Are you armed?" in any sort of government database? How is that done?
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
LE does not appreciate legal open carry.
What percent of LE does not appreciate open carry?
They like to keep tabs on open carriers.
How many open carriers do you know of that police/law enforcement keep tabs on? How much time is spent keeping tabs on "open carriers".
I'm not the only one who is in these databases.
Why are you in those databases? I ask so that knowing how you got there might help other open carriers how to avoid getting in those data bases you are in.
Back in 2007 there were at least 35 million people recorded.
35 million open carriers? WOW!!
It was just getting statrted at that point. How many do you think there are now? To deny all this is ignorant.
No denying lots of people are in lots of databases.
Didn't one of the the administrators of this forum get entered into the N-dex or one doj because he called the police in California? All of that info is part of the LEISP and is in a database.

"an individual identifying himself as a co-founder of "OpenCarry.org" called Turlock Police Department and suggested that Turlock Police Officers required training on the "right to carry firearms". OpenCarry.org also posted a message from an individual, “CA_Libertarian”, who claimed he was "illegally detained and harassed" by Turlock Police Officers. The website posting suggested that the incident was being reviewed by an attorney for the purposes of pursuing a civil rights violation action and that there was an audiotape recording of the entire incident. In addition, the individual confronted and detained by officers was not a Turlock resident and his posting related his experiences of openly carrying firearms throughout different communities. Based on a review of their website, it appears that the Open Carry movement is spreading to this region. The founders are based on the east coast and much of the activity has been in that area, but recent activity in the central valley and some of the forum postings indicate that law enforcement agencies in California may experience an increase in the number of Open Carry encounters in their jurisdictions. If you logon to their website www.opencarry.org and click on "Our Forum" at the top left, then scroll down to "California", you will see that there are 7 pages of postings, all with a sizeable number of replies. Included in the postings are the Turlock P.D. incident and the Sacramento P.D. incident (including the High Priority internal memo) as well as meetings and "meet and greets" that have either taken place or are being planned throughout
California."


taken from a leo bulletin sacramento Ca regional terrorism threat assessment center 2008.
Do you have a link to that bulletin?
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
They (gov't) have admitted that they listen in on our phone calls, read our e-mails, track our cell phones and also where we surf on the internet so what is so cynical about presumeing that they would enter us into a database as relates to being armed? I would say that either you are very naive Russ or you're a shill. Which is it?
Exactly what are the mechanics involved in entering an affirmative answer to the question, "Are you armed?" in any sort of government database? How is that done?
I see you answered neither of my questions. Your cover is blown. Away with you, begone,shill.
Okay, Tom, I am neither naive nor a shill.

Lets keep this in the context of the original question, Post #1:
I'm new to open carry and have a quick question. If you get pulled over by the police, are you obligated to tell them that you are armed? If so, when would you tell them?

Thanks in advance.:)
The bold emphasis is mine...

You state/ask:
...what is so cynical about presumeing that they would enter us into a database as relates to being armed?...
Now, my question is asked only about the very narrow context of Southpawtact's scenario. An officer stops you for a trafficviolation. The officer asks if you are armed. You answer truthfully and immediately, "Yes."

Now, do you know how, and please share what you know with those here, how that officer is going to enter your affirmative answer into a database in the process of issuing a ticket/warning/letting you go.
 

Thos.Jefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
288
Location
just south of the river, Kentucky, USA
Okay, Tom, I am neither naive nor a shill.

Lets keep this in the context of the original question, Post #1:The bold emphasis is mine...

You state/ask:Now, my question is asked only about the very narrow context of Southpawtact's scenario. An officer stops you for a trafficviolation. The officer asks if you are armed. You answer truthfully and immediately, "Yes."

Now, do you know how, and please share what you know with those here, how that officer is going to enter your affirmative answer into a database in the process of issuing a ticket/warning/letting you go.
You may answer immediately but I sir shall stand upon the high pedestal of my inherent right to silence and simply reply with"would you like to see my registration,license and proof of insurance officer".

As I am not a member of the "ruling" regime I can't give an honest answer to this question but what I proposed was why would one consider this to be outside the realm of possibility given all of the egregious, un-Constitutional snooping that the "gov't" admittedly conducts against Us as a citizenry?


I don't know about Va. but here in Ky. (at least where I live) ALL of the police cruisers have a laptop in them as standard equipment. Now taking that fact into account one would be able to quickly deduce that a simple program could easily be used to set-up a databes to record whether or not people that were stopped had divulged that they were armed.
 
Last edited:

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
Government databases exist for information to be entered. Anything said at a traffic stop can be entered including; Phone #'s, passenger descriptions identifications, destinations, firearm serial #'s, are all subject to being entered. All of that info is subject to being shared. Why do you think I have intelligence reports written about me? Why have police agencies written advisory bulletins? I've done nothing wrong. My info is out there because cops took the info and put it into the database. They don't stop at traffic stops. They comb the internet too.



Taken from the DOJ LEISP:

To fulfill their objectives, law enforcement agencies conduct a number of activities to detect and investigate terrorist and criminal activity, including:

patrol/traffic enforcement

arrest/apprehension

emergency response/incident management

surveillance

case specific investigation

task force investigation
These core law enforcement activities are facilitated and influenced by investigative and analysis functions and managed through some form of a command and control function.
The most common contact the public has with law enforcement is interaction with patrol officers through traffic stops. These contacts often yield a wealth of information for criminal investigation and prevention purposes.
Although DOJ has limited patrol functions, other federal agencies (e.g., Park Police, Customs and Border Protection, DOD, and the Transportation Security Administration) have extensive patrol or related security functions. In addition, DOJ investigations rely on assistance from state and local law enforcement patrol functions to help collect information and identify the location of fugitives or suspects.
Patrol officers need several types of information to execute their routine responsibilities, to assist investigators, and to maintain their personal safety. They need access to information on wanted persons and stolen vehicles. They also need the ability to quickly and positively identify persons. To assist investigators or intelligence functions, they also need to know “who or what to be on the lookout for.”
Patrol officers/agents typically are provided information in one of four situations: pre-patrol briefings, notices or alerts while on patrol, as a result of queries they submit while conducting a stop (e.g. traffic, suspicious person), or in making an arrest. They also collect and report information to command authorities, investigators, and potentially to officers of another agency.
Information may be collected by patrol officers as a result of specific requests from others or self-initiated based on a suspicion of criminal activity, intuition, knowledge, or training. Information collected by patrol officers typically is documented in field interviews or suspicious person reports, preliminary criminal offense reports, or traffic citations.
 

RussP

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
Okay, Tom, I am neither naive nor a shill.

Lets keep this in the context of the original question, Post #1:The bold emphasis is mine...

You state/ask:Now, my question is asked only about the very narrow context of Southpawtact's scenario. An officer stops you for a trafficviolation. The officer asks if you are armed. You answer truthfully and immediately, "Yes."

Now, do you know how, and please share what you know with those here, how that officer is going to enter your affirmative answer into a database in the process of issuing a ticket/warning/letting you go.
You may answer immediately but I sir shall stand upon the high pedestal of my inherent right to silence and simply reply with"would you like to see my registration,license and proof of insurance officer".
You, sir, do have the right to remain silent. However, you just indicated you would not. You answer the officer's question with a question. There is a difference.
As I am not a member of the "ruling" regime I can't give an honest answer to this question but what I proposed was why would one consider this to be outside the realm of possibility given all of the egregious, un-Constitutional snooping that the "gov't" admittedly conducts against Us as a citizenry?


I don't know about Va. but here in Ky. (at least where I live) ALL of the police cruisers have a laptop in them as standard equipment. Now taking that fact into account one would be able to quickly deduce that a simple program could easily be used to set-up a databes to record whether or not people that were stopped had divulged that they were armed.
So you really do not know as fact whether a law enforcement officer can and will enter into a database the fact you were carrying a firearm during a traffic stop.

By the way, and this is relevant to this discussion, do you still carry your firearm on the dashboard when driving your car? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...n-you-drive-in-your-car&p=1072178#post1072178
 

Thos.Jefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
288
Location
just south of the river, Kentucky, USA
You, sir, do have the right to remain silent. However, you just indicated you would not. You answer the officer's question with a question. There is a difference.So you really do not know as fact whether a law enforcement officer can and will enter into a database the fact you were carrying a firearm during a traffic stop.

By the way, and this is relevant to this discussion, do you still carry your firearm on the dashboard when driving your car? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...n-you-drive-in-your-car&p=1072178#post1072178

don't make me use this
 

Attachments

  • troll spray.jpg
    troll spray.jpg
    2.6 KB · Views: 93
Top