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Thread: Open Carry vs Concealed

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    Open Carry vs Concealed

    What is the point of this discussion?
    Why do GMU student feel it so necessary to carry a concealed weapon?
    If this was such an issue why don't GMU student just open carry. Wouldn't open carrying be proactive to school violence and act as a deterrent to a school shooting? Rather than concealed carrying which would be reactive to the situation and would cause even more chaos and probably lead to more causalities..When people are under stressful situations, such as a school shooting, it is exponentially harder to hit your target with a bullet. Most students only have experience standing still, under zero stress, shooting a motionless paper target. This wouldn't be the case in a real life scenario...
    Lets leave it to the professionals...
    GMU students for cell phones!!

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    I agree, more people with guns does not equal less casualties in these circumstances. There is no doubt that even a student with a gun will be pants pooping scared at the thought and sight of murder. They will probably miss quite a bit even striking their classmates with stray rounds. Increase campus police/security, don't rely on hungover students to protect you.







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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    hmmm the trolls are out in force... or perhaps I would better served to call them the sheeple....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Sheeple, trolls? Its ok to admit that you can't have an intelligent debate instead of hiding behind those two meaningles terms to justify your tactless demeanor. By the way, Autosurgeon, stick to mechanic, don't try to glamorize being a grease monkey.
    Last edited by EG&G Technical Services Employee; 07-12-2010 at 02:28 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EG&G Technical Services Employee View Post
    I agree, more people with guns does not equal less casualties in these circumstances. There is no doubt that even a student with a gun will be pants pooping scared at the thought and sight of murder. They will probably miss quite a bit even striking their classmates with stray rounds. Increase campus police/security, don't rely on hungover students to protect you.

    I'm a student at a State University.

    I'm 44 years old, returning to get my Masters Degree. I have EXTENSIVE training in self-defense, urban tactical shooting, and LE training (from the POV of the TRAINER). I've been carrying for over 15 years. I've shot competitively in USPSA and IPSC.

    Not all "students" are hung-over 19-year-old frat boy wussies.

    Some "students" are level-headed, world-wise adults with more experience and training than most LEO's. Some students are mature, aware, and responsible.

    Some students are actually adults...

    Wake up, EG&G. You've obviously drunk the NWO Kool-aid beig served in your employer's commissary. You need to remember that contrary to the Globalist agenda of world domination of your employer, there ARE still people in the world who cherish freedom, liberty, and personal responsibility.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-12-2010 at 06:50 PM.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Some "students" are level-headed, world-wise adults with more experience and training than most LEO's. Some students are mature, aware, and responsible.
    Like say, my 31 year old Marine Reservist buddy (Married w/kids on the way)
    or my 25 year old Air Force Pilot friend
    or my 27 year old NRA instructor fellow researcher
    or my 26 year old Coast Guard mate (Married)
    or myself... I'll bet I could outshoot an extremely high percentage of the cops in my area.

    Sure, I'd open carry one of my guns to class if it weren't against student policy... and on the way home through neighborhoods where home invasions and armed robberies are common, murders are about a triweekly occurrence, and gunshots can be heard multiple nights per week.
    Last edited by t33j; 07-12-2010 at 08:02 PM.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EG&G Technical Services Employee View Post
    Sheeple, trolls? Its ok to admit that you can't have an intelligent debate instead of hiding behind those two meaningles terms to justify your tactless demeanor. By the way, Autosurgeon, stick to mechanic, don't try to glamorize being a grease monkey.
    I do so love it when people resort to attacking my username
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    Some of Us do have training

    "I agree, more people with guns does not equal less casualties in these circumstances. There is no doubt that even a student with a gun will be pants pooping scared at the thought and sight of murder. They will probably miss quite a bit even striking their classmates with stray rounds. Increase campus police/security, don't rely on hungover students to protect you."

    Just wanted to let you know that some of us "hungover students" do know how to handle weapons and react in life/death situations. I spent four years in the US Marine Corps and got advanced tactical training so please don't generalize.

    Secondly, I am the campus leader/president of the GMU SCCC and I feel the need to inform you that the students who want to carry concealed are going to be receiving advanced training. One of the main missions of our group is to educate students on weapons handling and firing. We also plan on educating the public if they are interested so we can abolish the ignorance associated with concealed carry. The truth is that many students can get shot within a matter of seconds BEFORE the campus police arrive (even if they get there in a minute or a matter of seconds). Unless you plan on paying for a bodyguard for each individual student, I think you should let us have a say in the protection of our individual bodies.

    Lastly, not everyone drinks.
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

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    Quote Originally Posted by karolynrgalarza View Post
    "I agree, more people with guns does not equal less casualties in these circumstances. There is no doubt that even a student with a gun will be pants pooping scared at the thought and sight of murder. They will probably miss quite a bit even striking their classmates with stray rounds. Increase campus police/security, don't rely on hungover students to protect you."

    Just wanted to let you know that some of us "hungover students" do know how to handle weapons and react in life/death situations. I spent four years in the US Marine Corps and got advanced tactical training so please don't generalize.

    Secondly, I am the campus leader/president of the GMU SCCC and I feel the need to inform you that the students who want to carry concealed are going to be receiving advanced training. One of the main missions of our group is to educate students on weapons handling and firing. We also plan on educating the public if they are interested so we can abolish the ignorance associated with concealed carry. The truth is that many students can get shot within a matter of seconds BEFORE the campus police arrive (even if they get there in a minute or a matter of seconds). Unless you plan on paying for a bodyguard for each individual student, I think you should let us have a say in the protection of our individual bodies.

    Lastly, not everyone drinks.

    Doesn't GMU have something like 30,000 students? How many of those 30,000 have tactical training from the US military?
    Last edited by URS Corporation Employee; 07-13-2010 at 08:56 AM.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    How many of those would carry - a couple hundred at most? It doesn't really matter anyway. I'd rather have a minimally trained citizen sitting next to me, than an individual with military or police training 5 minutes away. Van Cleave put it pretty well in a youtube video when he was at Virginia Tech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    How many of those would carry - a couple hundred at most? It doesn't really matter anyway. I'd rather have a minimally trained citizen sitting next to me, than an individual with military or police training 5 minutes away. Van Cleave put it pretty well in a youtube video when he was at Virginia Tech.
    Couldn't have said it better myself

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    The number doesn't matter... as long as those that want to can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    The number doesn't matter... as long as those that want to can.
    as the gangster poet Notorious BIG once said "Got the gat in my knapsack, lounging black, on my sidekick, rocking fly kicks"

    Which brings me to my next point, if everyone is fearing for their lives so much in a college campus setting, why not carry your handgun in a backpack? No one can tell, and if the argument for carrying a gun because "i like my life, or my nuts intact" or whatever laughable sputter you tell an anti, why not protect yourself where mass murders have occurred before, regardless of the law?
    Last edited by URS Corporation Employee; 07-13-2010 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShootYouInTheFace View Post
    as the gangster poet Notorious BIG once said "Got the gat in my knapsack, lounging black, on my sidekick, rocking fly kicks"

    Which brings me to my next point, if everyone is fearing for their lives so much in a college campus setting, why not carry your handgun in a backpack? No one can tell, and if the argument for carrying a gun because "i like my life, or my nuts intact" or whatever laughable sputter you tell an anti, why not protect yourself where mass murders have occurred before, regardless of the law?
    Because, contrary to what you seem to think about citizens with firearms, most of us here are NOT about breaking the law, however much we may disagree with it. Are you?

    Well, well, well. I guess I will not need to ignore this troll at all. Bye.
    Last edited by wrightme; 07-13-2010 at 09:47 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Stop feeding the troll. He should be gone soon.

    According to our loving admins, he's posting from work, and they have been notified.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Same Troll from yesterday, its just he got blocked and now he is back on under a new name...This subject must really get to him!
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

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    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by URS Corporation Employee View Post
    Doesn't GMU have something like 30,000 students? How many of those 30,000 have tactical training from the US military?
    So I guess you are going to pay for 30,000 bodyguards? Hey didnt know you were that generous!
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

    — George Mason

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    Most students are between 18 and 22 correct? Now in the US all males 18-25 are required to register for selective services. So what you're telling me is that in the event of a large war and subsequent draft, half of the people in that age bracket wouldn't be mature enough to fight?

    Those who chose to carry for their own defense have also chosen to practice with their weapons and undergo training for a defense situation. A gun is only a tool and like any other tool can be dangerous in clueless hands, or a lifesaver in the hands of someone willing to take the time to learn to use it properly.

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    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    Not to mention only 21 and up can get concealed permits...It's not like we are children or teenagers, we are adults!
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

    — George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40compact View Post
    What is the point of this discussion?
    Why do GMU student feel it so necessary to carry a concealed weapon?
    If this was such an issue why don't GMU student just open carry. Wouldn't open carrying be proactive to school violence and act as a deterrent to a school shooting? Rather than concealed carrying which would be reactive to the situation and would cause even more chaos and probably lead to more causalities..When people are under stressful situations, such as a school shooting, it is exponentially harder to hit your target with a bullet. Most students only have experience standing still, under zero stress, shooting a motionless paper target. This wouldn't be the case in a real life scenario...
    Lets leave it to the professionals...
    GMU students for cell phones!!
    How does concealed carry cause more casualities?
    What can cell phones do to protect you from getting shot?
    Pushing 911 aint gonna make the police get there in a matter of seconds before the shooter takes out a couple students. Not to mention they get called to the wrong building or floor. Or how about they have to climb 6 flights of stairs or take the elevator? MANY people can get shot within a matter of seconds, especially if the perp has an automatic weapon...But hey, as long as its not you, right?
    Last edited by karolynrgalarza; 07-14-2010 at 01:23 AM.
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xd40compact
    What is the point of this discussion?
    Why do GMU student feel it so necessary to carry a concealed weapon?
    If this was such an issue why don't GMU student just open carry. Wouldn't open carrying be proactive to school violence and act as a deterrent to a school shooting? Rather than concealed carrying which would be reactive to the situation and would cause even more chaos and probably lead to more causalities..When people are under stressful situations, such as a school shooting, it is exponentially harder to hit your target with a bullet. Most students only have experience standing still, under zero stress, shooting a motionless paper target. This wouldn't be the case in a real life scenario...
    Lets leave it to the professionals...
    GMU students for cell phones!!
    Quote Originally Posted by karolynrgalarza View Post
    How does concealed carry cause more casualities?
    What can cell phones do to protect you from getting shot?
    Pushing 911 aint gonna make the police get there in a matter of seconds before the shooter takes out a couple students. Not to mention they get called to the wrong building or floor. Or how about they have to climb 6 flights of stairs or take the elevator? MANY people can get shot within a matter of seconds, especially if the perp has an automatic weapon...But hey, as long as its not you, right?
    There is the matter of OCing will likely cause the student to be expelled, so hardly an alternative .....yet.

    So because such situations are stressful and motor skills deteriorate, there are those that would guarantee the continued unarmed, defenseless status of the intended victims. These persons are no better than the shooter - they are the enablers, they set up the conditions that allow the perpetrator to have such a rich killing field.

    No tactical training? Mistakes might be made? These questions/statements are designed to cast lack of confidence in average citizens right to self-defense and presumes that one must be an expert operator to be allowed to defend.

    All of the best of plans, rules restricting guns, police para-military training and hand wring over the children has done NOTHING to prevent these senseless tragedies. The only viable, life preserving possibility is that the potential victims have the IMMEDIATE ability to stop the shooter. Anything else will only provide tomorrow's headlines complete with chalk drawings and stories about what good people they were.

    Some people create problems out of solutions and demand a perfect world. All people must have the right to protect themselves and those they love. Where unfettered by false fears and restrictions this has proven to be an effective deterrent.

    Cells phones, warning systems and other disarmed tactics are an empty hands approach that cries for more decisive reaction. But for the blindness to the absolute truth that nothing else will work, the tragedies will continue unabated.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by URS Corporation Employee View Post
    Doesn't GMU have something like 30,000 students? How many of those 30,000 have tactical training from the US military?
    I would rather have somebody who has no training who shoots their gun often, then somebody who has training and shoots very little.

    Tactical Training received in the US military and Law Enforcement is very different then training for civilians. Doctrinally it can get you into a lot of hot water if you have no civilian concealed carry training. Also, many soldiers receive minimal training on the use of a Pistol. The majority of soldiers only carry a Rifle.

    Most of the guys you see carrying guns, seek out training that is appropriate for carrying pistol in public, not for kicking down doors in a far off land. Most of the folks that you meet that carry a gun 100% of the time practice often, and are extremely well trained for the mission of carrying a pistol out in public. Shooting is perishable skill, and just because your background states you have experience doesn't mean you are "better" then somebody else. Cops and Military are all people when they take the uniform off are just like everybody else, in order to gain proficiency at something they too must practice. I have met very good shooters who are law enforcement; however, generally these tend to be the exception and not the rule. Also, most of these individuals were shooters "BEFORE" they became a cop.
    Due to the economy, many police departments are cutting their ammunition and training budgets, and forcing officers to either purchase their own ammunition or not practice. Many police only shoot during their qualifications; some departments have yearly qualifications which means some officers may only shoot their guns 1 time a year. I would say most of the folks, that carry a gun shoot at a minimum of once a month, most of these folks tend to go into shooters shock, if they don’t' get to the range at least 1 time a week. To most of us this is our sport/hobby/lifestyle, but most importantly its 27 words in the document that sets our country apart from all the rest. Making America the best country in the world.

    This is why I do not believe that a background or job gives them magical powers that allows them to carry a gun places where I am not allowed. If you don't believe me, see if you can watch your next police departments shooting qualification you may get a shock!
    Last edited by rob99vmi04; 07-14-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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    Regular Member karolynrgalarza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob99vmi04 View Post
    I would rather have somebody who has no training who shoots their gun often, then somebody who has training and shoots very little.

    Tactical Training recieved in the US military and Law Enforcment is very differn't then training for civilians. Doctrinally it can get you into a lot of hot water if you have no civilian concealed carry training. Also, many soldiers recieve minimal training on the use of a Pistol. The majority of soldiers only carry a Rifle.

    Most of the guys you see carrying guns, seek out training that is appropriate for carrying pistol in public, not for kicking down doors in a far off land. Most of the folks that you meet that carry a gun 100% of the time practice often, and are extremely well trained for the mission of carrying a pistol out in public. Shooting is perishible skill, and just because your background states you have experience doesn't mean you are "better" then somebody else. Cops and Military are all people when they take the uniform off are just like everybody else, in order to be profiencent at something they too must practice. I have met very good shooters who are law enforcement, however, generally these tend to be the exception and not the rule. Also, most of these individuals were shooters "BEFORE" they became a cop.
    Due to the economy, many police departments are cutting their ammuntion and training budgets, and forcing officers to either purchase their own ammuntion or not practice. Many police only shoot during their qualifications, some departments have yearly qualifications which means some officers may only shoot their guns 1 time a year. I would say most of the folks, that carry a gun shoot at a minimum of once a month, most of these folks tend to go into shooters shock, if they dont' get to the range at least 1 time a week. To most of us this is our sport/hobby/lifestyle, but most importantly its 27 words in the document that sets our country apart from all the rest. Making America the best country in the world.

    This is why I do not believe that a background or job gives them magical powers that allows them to carry a gun places where I am not allowed. If you don't believe me, see if you can watch your next police departments shooting qualification you may get a shock!
    So very true! I was trained on the M16A2 service rifle. We took it everywhere and we treated it like it was a part of our self. So, I'm very good with handling that rifle. (Better at shooting moving targets though). We all trained on machine guns and anti-tank weapons, but not as much as that M16....You dont even learn how to shoot a pistol in bootcamp. Pistol qual is for officers and staff NCOs as a requirement for promotion. In my job we had down-seasons where we had alot of time between jobs to train. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do pistol qual twice using the Beretta M9. The M9 is the only handgun I have ever shot and I recieved no tactical type training with that weapon. Honestly I feel way more comfortable carrying around a rifle, but we cant really conceal carry that. Even though I dont have tactical training with handguns, I still feel that if I was put in a life/death situation I would know what to do because I have been trained to react in life/death situations. The only difference is that there is no buttstock in my shoulder, and no sling on my handgun. Anyone faced with a life/death situation #1 goal is self-preservation.
    Last edited by karolynrgalarza; 07-14-2010 at 01:41 PM.
    "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
    ‘‘To disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.’’

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karolynrgalarza View Post
    So very true! I was trained on the M16A2 service rifle. We took it everywhere and we treated it like it was a part of our self. So, I'm very good with handling that rifle. (Better at shooting moving targets though). We all trained on machine guns and anti-tank weapons, but not as much as that M16....You dont even learn how to shoot a pistol in bootcamp. Pistol qual is for officers and staff NCOs as a requirement for promotion. In my job we had down-seasons where we had alot of time between jobs to train. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do pistol qual twice using the Beretta M9. The M9 is the only handgun I have ever shot and I recieved no tactical type training with that weapon. Honestly I feel way more comfortable carrying around a rifle, but we cant really conceal carry that. Even though I dont have tactical training with handguns, I still feel that if I was put in a life/death situation I would know what to do because I have been trained to react in life/death situations. The only difference is that there is no buttstock in my shoulder, and no sling on my handgun. Anyone faced with a life/death situation #1 goal is self-preservation.
    I think you are correct. Whether you realize it or not, you've been trained to handle an unexpected adverse situation and produce a favorable outcome. However one of the factors present in defending yourself from an attacker in a crowd of victims is dealing with the fear and panic of the rest of the crowd, a situation quite different from being a member of a well-trained squad or platoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is the matter of OCing will likely cause the student to be expelled, so hardly an alternative .....yet.
    OC’ing on a college campus in VA is legal – but no one should do it. It is not only disrespectful to put students who $10,000’s for an education under that much stress but also immature because you are, (I hope you are) a rational human being and know the cops will be called. You’re doing it for attention, not for protection. What are odds of a shooting? Similar to being struck by lightning? Bottom line: it’s legal, but don’t do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No tactical training? Mistakes might be made? These questions/statements are designed to cast lack of confidence in average citizens right to self-defense and presumes that one must be an expert operator to be allowed to defend.
    I do lack confidence in the average citizen. If you own a gun you should be properly trained. Period. You don’t have to be an expert to defend yourself but you should have sufficient training. If a shootout occurs on campus, specifically GMU with a 30,000 person enrollment, there are going to be 100’s of chaotic civilians running left and right – now, do you think an “average citizen w/ the right to self-defense” can pull off that shot without endangering other students?

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