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Open Carry vs Concealed

Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by xd40compact
What is the point of this discussion?
Why do GMU student feel it so necessary to carry a concealed weapon?
If this was such an issue why don't GMU student just open carry. Wouldn't open carrying be proactive to school violence and act as a deterrent to a school shooting? Rather than concealed carrying which would be reactive to the situation and would cause even more chaos and probably lead to more causalities..When people are under stressful situations, such as a school shooting, it is exponentially harder to hit your target with a bullet. Most students only have experience standing still, under zero stress, shooting a motionless paper target. This wouldn't be the case in a real life scenario...
Lets leave it to the professionals...
GMU students for cell phones!!
How does concealed carry cause more casualities?
What can cell phones do to protect you from getting shot?
Pushing 911 aint gonna make the police get there in a matter of seconds before the shooter takes out a couple students. Not to mention they get called to the wrong building or floor. Or how about they have to climb 6 flights of stairs or take the elevator? MANY people can get shot within a matter of seconds, especially if the perp has an automatic weapon...But hey, as long as its not you, right?

There is the matter of OCing will likely cause the student to be expelled, so hardly an alternative .....yet.

So because such situations are stressful and motor skills deteriorate, there are those that would guarantee the continued unarmed, defenseless status of the intended victims. These persons are no better than the shooter - they are the enablers, they set up the conditions that allow the perpetrator to have such a rich killing field.

No tactical training? Mistakes might be made? These questions/statements are designed to cast lack of confidence in average citizens right to self-defense and presumes that one must be an expert operator to be allowed to defend.

All of the best of plans, rules restricting guns, police para-military training and hand wring over the children has done NOTHING to prevent these senseless tragedies. The only viable, life preserving possibility is that the potential victims have the IMMEDIATE ability to stop the shooter. Anything else will only provide tomorrow's headlines complete with chalk drawings and stories about what good people they were.

Some people create problems out of solutions and demand a perfect world. All people must have the right to protect themselves and those they love. Where unfettered by false fears and restrictions this has proven to be an effective deterrent.

Cells phones, warning systems and other disarmed tactics are an empty hands approach that cries for more decisive reaction. But for the blindness to the absolute truth that nothing else will work, the tragedies will continue unabated.
 

rob99vmi04

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Doesn't GMU have something like 30,000 students? How many of those 30,000 have tactical training from the US military?

I would rather have somebody who has no training who shoots their gun often, then somebody who has training and shoots very little.

Tactical Training received in the US military and Law Enforcement is very different then training for civilians. Doctrinally it can get you into a lot of hot water if you have no civilian concealed carry training. Also, many soldiers receive minimal training on the use of a Pistol. The majority of soldiers only carry a Rifle.

Most of the guys you see carrying guns, seek out training that is appropriate for carrying pistol in public, not for kicking down doors in a far off land. Most of the folks that you meet that carry a gun 100% of the time practice often, and are extremely well trained for the mission of carrying a pistol out in public. Shooting is perishable skill, and just because your background states you have experience doesn't mean you are "better" then somebody else. Cops and Military are all people when they take the uniform off are just like everybody else, in order to gain proficiency at something they too must practice. I have met very good shooters who are law enforcement; however, generally these tend to be the exception and not the rule. Also, most of these individuals were shooters "BEFORE" they became a cop.
Due to the economy, many police departments are cutting their ammunition and training budgets, and forcing officers to either purchase their own ammunition or not practice. Many police only shoot during their qualifications; some departments have yearly qualifications which means some officers may only shoot their guns 1 time a year. I would say most of the folks, that carry a gun shoot at a minimum of once a month, most of these folks tend to go into shooters shock, if they don’t' get to the range at least 1 time a week. To most of us this is our sport/hobby/lifestyle, but most importantly its 27 words in the document that sets our country apart from all the rest. Making America the best country in the world.

This is why I do not believe that a background or job gives them magical powers that allows them to carry a gun places where I am not allowed. If you don't believe me, see if you can watch your next police departments shooting qualification you may get a shock!
 
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karolynrgalarza

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I would rather have somebody who has no training who shoots their gun often, then somebody who has training and shoots very little.

Tactical Training recieved in the US military and Law Enforcment is very differn't then training for civilians. Doctrinally it can get you into a lot of hot water if you have no civilian concealed carry training. Also, many soldiers recieve minimal training on the use of a Pistol. The majority of soldiers only carry a Rifle.

Most of the guys you see carrying guns, seek out training that is appropriate for carrying pistol in public, not for kicking down doors in a far off land. Most of the folks that you meet that carry a gun 100% of the time practice often, and are extremely well trained for the mission of carrying a pistol out in public. Shooting is perishible skill, and just because your background states you have experience doesn't mean you are "better" then somebody else. Cops and Military are all people when they take the uniform off are just like everybody else, in order to be profiencent at something they too must practice. I have met very good shooters who are law enforcement, however, generally these tend to be the exception and not the rule. Also, most of these individuals were shooters "BEFORE" they became a cop.
Due to the economy, many police departments are cutting their ammuntion and training budgets, and forcing officers to either purchase their own ammuntion or not practice. Many police only shoot during their qualifications, some departments have yearly qualifications which means some officers may only shoot their guns 1 time a year. I would say most of the folks, that carry a gun shoot at a minimum of once a month, most of these folks tend to go into shooters shock, if they dont' get to the range at least 1 time a week. To most of us this is our sport/hobby/lifestyle, but most importantly its 27 words in the document that sets our country apart from all the rest. Making America the best country in the world.

This is why I do not believe that a background or job gives them magical powers that allows them to carry a gun places where I am not allowed. If you don't believe me, see if you can watch your next police departments shooting qualification you may get a shock!

So very true! I was trained on the M16A2 service rifle. We took it everywhere and we treated it like it was a part of our self. So, I'm very good with handling that rifle. (Better at shooting moving targets though). We all trained on machine guns and anti-tank weapons, but not as much as that M16....You dont even learn how to shoot a pistol in bootcamp. Pistol qual is for officers and staff NCOs as a requirement for promotion. In my job we had down-seasons where we had alot of time between jobs to train. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do pistol qual twice using the Beretta M9. The M9 is the only handgun I have ever shot and I recieved no tactical type training with that weapon. Honestly I feel way more comfortable carrying around a rifle, but we cant really conceal carry that. Even though I dont have tactical training with handguns, I still feel that if I was put in a life/death situation I would know what to do because I have been trained to react in life/death situations. The only difference is that there is no buttstock in my shoulder, and no sling on my handgun. Anyone faced with a life/death situation #1 goal is self-preservation.
 
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2a4all

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So very true! I was trained on the M16A2 service rifle. We took it everywhere and we treated it like it was a part of our self. So, I'm very good with handling that rifle. (Better at shooting moving targets though). We all trained on machine guns and anti-tank weapons, but not as much as that M16....You dont even learn how to shoot a pistol in bootcamp. Pistol qual is for officers and staff NCOs as a requirement for promotion. In my job we had down-seasons where we had alot of time between jobs to train. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do pistol qual twice using the Beretta M9. The M9 is the only handgun I have ever shot and I recieved no tactical type training with that weapon. Honestly I feel way more comfortable carrying around a rifle, but we cant really conceal carry that. Even though I dont have tactical training with handguns, I still feel that if I was put in a life/death situation I would know what to do because I have been trained to react in life/death situations. The only difference is that there is no buttstock in my shoulder, and no sling on my handgun. Anyone faced with a life/death situation #1 goal is self-preservation.

I think you are correct. Whether you realize it or not, you've been trained to handle an unexpected adverse situation and produce a favorable outcome. However one of the factors present in defending yourself from an attacker in a crowd of victims is dealing with the fear and panic of the rest of the crowd, a situation quite different from being a member of a well-trained squad or platoon.
 

xd40compact

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There is the matter of OCing will likely cause the student to be expelled, so hardly an alternative .....yet.

OC’ing on a college campus in VA is legal – but no one should do it. It is not only disrespectful to put students who $10,000’s for an education under that much stress but also immature because you are, (I hope you are) a rational human being and know the cops will be called. You’re doing it for attention, not for protection. What are odds of a shooting? Similar to being struck by lightning? Bottom line: it’s legal, but don’t do it.

No tactical training? Mistakes might be made? These questions/statements are designed to cast lack of confidence in average citizens right to self-defense and presumes that one must be an expert operator to be allowed to defend.

I do lack confidence in the average citizen. If you own a gun you should be properly trained. Period. You don’t have to be an expert to defend yourself but you should have sufficient training. If a shootout occurs on campus, specifically GMU with a 30,000 person enrollment, there are going to be 100’s of chaotic civilians running left and right – now, do you think an “average citizen w/ the right to self-defense” can pull off that shot without endangering other students?
 

Grapeshot

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OC’ing on a college campus in VA is legal – but no one should do it. It is not only disrespectful to put students who $10,000’s for an education under that much stress but also immature because you are, (I hope you are) a rational human being and know the cops will be called. You’re doing it for attention, not for protection. What are odds of a shooting? Similar to being struck by lightning? Bottom line: it’s legal, but don’t do it.



I do lack confidence in the average citizen. If you own a gun you should be properly trained. Period. You don’t have to be an expert to defend yourself but you should have sufficient training. If a shootout occurs on campus, specifically GMU with a 30,000 person enrollment, there are going to be 100’s of chaotic civilians running left and right – now, do you think an “average citizen w/ the right to self-defense” can pull off that shot without endangering other students?

So now you have identified yourself as having an imagination greater than established truths. Don't trust fellow citizens for what you think they might do rather than accept the truth/history of the seamless integration of responsible people acting responsibly. You do know that there are places where this has been legal for some time and guess what - no problems.

You are not only an agent provocateur, but working to promote the continued opportunity for the pain and suffering that falls about the heads of victims and their families.
 

karolynrgalarza

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I don't know too many people that carry around a weapon without having any knowledge of how to use it, because that's just stupid...Cept maybe a Thug-mugger, but who ever said they were smart?
 
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Jay Gatz

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In response to likelihood of shootings on campuses I am a student at Virginia Commonwealth University(Richmond Virginia). From my dorm room window last semester I saw 2 shootings(not direct witness, heard gunshots and watched as cops congregated) and 4 drug arrests/searches at least one of which resulting in the cops finding a sawed off shotgun. In the park my campus surrounds there were a string of knife point muggings. I friend of mine was jumped by two guys on a well lit street on his way home, beaten and his wallet stolen.

Yeah campuses are dangerous. There's a lot of students with little to no way of defending themselves making them prime targets. Worse is that many have the same belief as you that they're perfectly safe and therefore do not take the proper precautions to lessen their risks.
 

Grapeshot

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In response to likelihood of shootings on campuses I am a student at Virginia Commonwealth University(Richmond Virginia). From my dorm room window last semester I saw 2 shootings(not direct witness, heard gunshots and watched as cops congregated) and 4 drug arrests/searches at least one of which resulting in the cops finding a sawed off shotgun. In the park my campus surrounds there were a string of knife point muggings. I friend of mine was jumped by two guys on a well lit street on his way home, beaten and his wallet stolen.

Yeah campuses are dangerous. There's a lot of students with little to no way of defending themselves making them prime targets. Worse is that many have the same belief as you that they're perfectly safe and therefore do not take the proper precautions to lessen their risks.

Were these on campus or on the streets, sidewalks or in Monroe Park OFF campus? VCU police and administration do make that fine line distinction in order to keep the reported crimes lower. What a difference a few feet or inches can make. :banghead:
 

SlackwareRobert

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But if "average" person cannot hit a moving target, wouldn't all those panicked students be safe as
long as they keep running in circles screaming?
Why do you support their choice to scream and panic, but not the obvious choice to just drop the
shooter and be done with it? Common sense says you don't draw down on someone if 50+
people around you are carrying. Those crazy enough to draw anyways need to be stopped
as they will keep shooting till you drop them.

CC on campus has only one advantage, they can't drink at the frat parties.
 

rob99vmi04

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But if "average" person cannot hit a moving target, wouldn't all those panicked students be safe as
long as they keep running in circles screaming?
Why do you support their choice to scream and panic, but not the obvious choice to just drop the
shooter and be done with it? Common sense says you don't draw down on someone if 50+
people around you are carrying. Those crazy enough to draw anyways need to be stopped
as they will keep shooting till you drop them.

CC on campus has only one advantage, they can't drink at the frat parties.

The problem is many people still buy into the fact that somebody with a badge is a gun toting superman or superwomen a trained marksman that will save the day. If you do not believe me watch any of the Die Hard, Lethal Weapons, or Bad Boy movies just to name a few, every cop on TV is a expert marksman. On the other hand, look at the real North Hollywood Bank of America shoot out in the 90's. Officers fired over 650 rounds of ammunition at two suspects most of the time in the OPEN utilizing very little cover) and managed to only land around 30 hits. That is a 5% hit ratio by regular beat cops, sergeants, SWAT officers etc.... using pistols, shotguns, and rifles.

Human nature says if you’re forced to due something you have a tendency to resist it and therefore only perform sub par. However, if you want to do something and make it apart of your life style vs. something you are required to do based on your job then you will excel at it. I'm not saying all but most of your "Highly trained and professional LE fall into category #1 vs. somebody who carries all the time and is hungry for knowledge, training, constantly and works to excel at it they are the folks I want not around.
 
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nova

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If a shootout occurs on campus, specifically GMU with a 30,000 person enrollment, there are going to be 100’s of chaotic civilians running left and right – now, do you think an “average citizen w/ the right to self-defense” can pull off that shot without endangering other students?

Well, we've seen what happens when law abiding citizens are disarmed, and only the crazed nutjob has a gun. Ask me how I know. Maybe my avatar will give you a clue.
 

Grapeshot

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Originally Posted by xd40compact
If a shootout occurs on campus, specifically GMU with a 30,000 person enrollment, there are going to be 100’s of chaotic civilians running left and right – now, do you think an “average citizen w/ the right to self-defense” can pull off that shot without endangering other students?
Well, we've seen what happens when law abiding citizens are disarmed, and only the crazed nutjob has a gun. Ask me how I know. Maybe my avatar will give you a clue.

Someone please tell Mr. Compact that LEOs are also "civilians" and that the average non-LEO has less collateral damage in use of force situations than do LEOs.

Me thinks he presumes knowledge which he doesn't have and is gaining a reputation demonstrating such.
 

USMC1986

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I haven't read all the posts but i'm more for concealed rather than open carry at a college campus. There are just too many people that don't want guns there and it stirs up too much controversy, therefore causing too much of a distraction. I don't think a college is a place for such distractions. People should concentrate on more important issues at hand. That's just my opinion.

Now I understand that people who open carry aren't out to please everyone. I know when I open carry, I can care less what people think about it but lets at the very least take the first step which is to get colleges to accept concealed carry. Then I believe the matter of open carry can be addressed.
 

Grapeshot

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I haven't read all the posts but i'm more for concealed rather than open carry at a college campus. There are just too many people that don't want guns there and it stirs up too much controversy, therefore causing too much of a distraction. I don't think a college is a place for such distractions. People should concentrate on more important issues at hand. That's just my opinion.

Now I understand that people who open carry aren't out to please everyone. I know when I open carry, I can care less what people think about it but lets at the very least take the first step which is to get colleges to accept concealed carry. Then I believe the matter of open carry can be addressed.

These lines of thought are much inter-related. Should I as as a non-student be required to CC when carrying or only students and staff? Where does it begin and end? Colleges and universities should not be in the disarmament business period - there is no valid reason for so doing.

Which is a greater "distraction" - a lawful, non-violent act or the carnage of those like Cho?
 

USMC1986

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These lines of thought are much inter-related. Should I as as a non-student be required to CC when carrying or only students and staff? Where does it begin and end? Colleges and universities should not be in the disarmament business period - there is no valid reason for so doing.

Which is a greater "distraction" - a lawful, non-violent act or the carnage of those like Cho?

If you want to advocate open carry for colleges then more power to you. I too agree that colleges shouldn't be in the disarmament business.
 
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