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Thread: Transcript of an arrest from Wallingford Police

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    Transcript of an arrest from Wallingford Police

    Tape transcription of telephone calls and radio transmissions through dispatch. IA #2010-0014.


    DISPATCHER MOROS: Wallingford Police and Fire, Dispatcher Moros.

    MARK VANAMAN: Hi my name is Mark. I’m down here at Yale Billiards in the Yale Plaza and I have a gentleman out here that’s walking around with his, with his gun exposed. With his weapon exposed and he has no badge or anything else like that, that, that would make anybody think he’s law enforcement or anything else.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: In Yale Plaza?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yeah, right, sitting right out in front of Yale Billiards. I asked him if he was gonna cover his weapon and he told me it was none of my business, he didn’t need to.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Can you give me a description of the man?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yeah he’s about 5’7” about…

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Is he white?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yeah he’s white. About 260 lbs., long hair in a ponytail with a mustache and goatee. He’s sitting there, he’s waiting for ya. I told him I was gonna call if you, if he didn’t um, cover it.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Can you tell me what he’s wearing?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yep. He’s wearing a blue t-shirt and, and greenish, gray shorts with sneakers on.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: And he has a firearm?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yep. On his right side with two magazines on it and uh, uh, magazine holder in the back. And I know you’re not supposed to carry it especially in a, in a place that has alcohol.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Your name?

    MARK VANAMAN: My name is Mark.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Last name?

    MARK VANAMAN: With a, with K. And the last name is Vanaman. V as in Victor, A-N-A-M-A-N.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: And he’s outside of the Billiards?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yeah because the owner asked him to leave and at first he gave the owner big balls about it and told, telling him he could do it and he could wear it like that and everything else.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: What’s he, what’s the…

    MARK VANAMAN: I mean I car, I carry a weapon myself, I’m a bail bondsman and a bail enforcement agent as well.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: What’s your telephone number?

    MARK VANAMAN: Which number, mine?

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Yeah the number we can contact you at?

    MARK VANAMAN: (203) 537-9030. Well I’ll be standing outside.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Does he have a, does he have a vehicle or anything?

    MARK VANAMAN: Um, I think he does, but he’s sitting out front, he has, he’s got a woman with him too, she went to a car and then came back with some piece of paper.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: And you’re in the Yale Plaza?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yes right in front of Yale Billiards.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: 950 Yale Ave.?

    MARK VANAMAN: Yes.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: Okay. All right let me get uh, some officers out there for ya, okay?

    MARK VANAMAN: All right thank you.

    DISPATCHER MOROS: All right bye.

    MARK VANAMAN: Bye.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Wallingford Police and Fire, Dispatcher Sevelowitz.

    ROBERT HILTON: Hi this uh, my name is Robert Hilton I’m calling from Yale Billiards in Wallingford, CT.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Yep.

    ROBERT HILTON: Um, there’s a gentleman here that has a gun on him, a 9mm (inaudible) and uh, he’s just carrying it, and I went up to him in my place of business and then, and he started telling me that it’s perfectly legal you know and stuff so, I’d actually asked him to leave because he made some customers uncomfortable and he’s waiting outside. I think somebody else has already called the police on this issue.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Yeah my partner’s on with somebody else right now.

    ROBERT HILTON: Okay.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: He’s out front still?

    ROBERT HILTON: He, he’s outside waiting, yep.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: All right well, just tell me what he’s wearing.


    ROBERT HILTON: Um, I think he’s wearing a black shirt with uh, hold on one second it has, he, he gave me the, what’s it, CCDL on it, the shirt. A black shirt with a CCDL carry on. That’s what it says on it, it’s actually like a, uh, Connecticut Citizens Defense League.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: Okay? Um, and he’s with a, uh, they’re both kinda heavy uh, he’s got a long ponytail and he’s with his girlfriend that’s a little heavy with blond hair.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay. We’re, we’re gonna get some guys out there, okay?

    ROBERT HILTON: All right is there anything I should do or just?

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Uh just keep an eye on him, I mean if he gets in a car or leaves, try and get a license plate and let us know and give us a call back.

    ROBERT HILTON: Okay.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Um.

    ROBERT HILTON: All right good cuz I uh, I would like to try find out this issue in case this ever happens again, I could really, I mean I kind, I, what I did is I told him let me just calm down, I was actually gonna call you and then one of my customers made a scene about it, so, that’s what happened. You know, (inaudible) cuz he’s trying to tell me it is, it, it’s legal and I’m like, I don’t think that’s legal, but.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Nah, I don’t, I….

    ROBERT HILTON: We’ll figure it out, all right thanks, I appreciate it.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: They’re on their way, okay?

    ROBERT HILTON: All right thanks.

    DISPATCH: 2-5 and 2-6.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5 North Colony and Cherry.

    OFFICER GONZALEZ: 2-6 South Elm (inaudible)

    DISPATCH: Both of you, it’s 950 Yale Ave., 9-5-0 Yale Ave. Yale Plaza fronting Yale Bill, Billiards. It’s gonna be for a 3006. States there’s a white male, 5’7”, 260 lbs. mustache, goatee, long hair, blue t-shirt, green shorts, (inaudible) has a firearm exposed and he’s refusing to conceal it, pacing back and forth in front of the Billiards. 950 Yale Ave. 3006 cross is North Colony, North Main Extension.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5 roger.

    OFFICER GONZALEZ: 2-6 (inaudible).

    LT. MARTINO: Units responding um, take up an area to uh, observe and standby for 1-2 to arrive.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5 copy.

    OFFICER GONZALEZ: 2-6 copy.

    OFFICER FLOOD: 2-4 copy.

    OFFICER FRAENZA: 2-3 copy.

    OFFICER FLOOD: 2-4 to 2-5.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5 go ahead.

    OFFICER FLOOD: Are you coming in from Route 5 side or North Main Extension?

    OFFICER GARCIA: 72 from Route 5.

    OFFICER FLOOD: Roger. Coming in from North Main Extension.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 1-2.

    DISPATCH:1-2.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Still on the line with the caller?

    DISPATCH: Negative. We received a call from the owner inside and a caller outside as well.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Roger. Do we know uh, what vehicle this guy came in?

    DISPATCH: Negative at this time. The owner is watching him from inside and stated he’ll call us if he sees anything.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Roger.

    OFFICER FRAENZA: 2-3 calling.

    DISPATCH: 2-3.

    OFFICER FRAENZA: All units 72 in the area.

    DISPATCH: Roger.

    I think he’s going (inaudible.)

    Subject sitting in front of Yale Billiards. He didn’t point the firearm at anyone.

    Roger.

    OFFICER FLOOD: A possible name Richard Vargas out of Branford. See if we have anything in house.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 1-2.

    DISPATCH: 1-2.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 72.

    DISPATCH: Roger.

    DISPATCH: 2-4.

    OFFICER FLOOD: 799PFX. That’s 799. Papa, Frank uh, X-ray.

    DISPATCH: Units at Yale Billiards be advised the subject is sitting in the first booth to the left of the main entrance. He’s sitting with a blond woman, curly hair.

    Roger.

    DISPATCH: 1-2 we have the owner on the line still. We’ll keep you updated.

    (Inaudible)

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 1-2 can you uh find out from the owner exactly where he’s sitting right now.

    LT. MARTINO: He’s apparently sitting on a bench right to the left of Yale Billiards.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Okay we got him.

    LT. MARTINO: Is he secured?

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: (inaudible) come to the front, we have him detained.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5.

    DISPATCH: 2-5.

    OFFICER GARCIA: Check out 207 271 537. 207 271 537.

    DISPATCH: Negative file 05, valid Richard Vargas.

    Roger you want a (inaudible) on this don’t you?

    OFFICER FRAENZA: 2-3 calling.

    DISPATCH: Go ahead.

    OFFICER FRAENZA: (Inaudible) 147 000 552. 147 000 552.

    DISPATCH: Valid negative file 05, Anna Marie.

    OFFICER FRAENZA: Roger.

    DISPATCH: 2-5.

    OFFICER GARCIA: 2-5. Go ahead.

    DISPATCH: Negative SPRC. One domestic violence charge out of Ohio.

    OFFICER GARCIA: Roger.

    LT. MARTINO: All units, signal 88 is cancelled. Signal 88 is cancelled. You can resume regular radio transmissions.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 1-1 to 1-2.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: 1-2 to 1-1.

    LT. MARTINO: Go ahead.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: What extension are you at?

    LT. MARTINO: I’m at the desk.

    2-1: 2-1.

    DISPATCH: 2-1.

    2-1: 73.

    DISPATCH: Roger.

    DISPATCH: 2-2.

    2-2: South Colony and Northfield.

    DISPATCH: 4 Mellor Road. 4 Mellor Road. Speak to Rhonda, states there’s a raccoon walking around by the house, looks like its sick. 4 Mellor Road, cross Kondracki and Bernadette.

    ROBERT HILTON: Sitting there with his, with his arms crossed I believe, you know he’s got a long ponytail, and the girl’s sitting all the way to the left and he’s sitting one over. Yeah he’s sitting there with his, his arms crossed and he’s holding his paperwork, his uh, the whatever I told you it was before.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Do you have pretty much a, uh, do you have a pretty good view of him right now?

    ROBERT HILTON: Uh yeah I can see him right now. I’m, I’m, I’m standing right behind him, he can’t really see me there’s a curtain there.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: And I have cameras in here, I mean I got a good picture of him when he was in here, but, that doesn’t help right now. I don’t have a camera outside. But yeah I can see him.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: And he’s sitting, like I said his hands are crossed and he’s got, in his, in his right hand on his left side of his body he’s holding the paperwork, the same flyer that he gave me.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay what side of him is his weapon on?

    ROBERT HILTON: Um, I believe its his right; I’m not one percent positive.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: It was on his right side?


    ROBERT HILTON: I’m not one hundred percent positive. I’m pretty sure it is though.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay. All right so you’re saying if you’re looking at the Billiards, he’s sitting to the left of the entrance, correct?

    ROBERT HILTON: In the (inaudible) yeah it’s correct.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: Yep.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: You’re telling me, he’s, he’s outside in front of the door?

    ROBERT HILTON: That’s correct. He has a goatee; he’s waving at you now. Or waving at, I, I believe he’s waving at somebody.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay. When you say booth, is on like a, is it a bench?

    ROBERT HILTON: It’s a bench, yes. It’s a bench with a smoke, there’s a smoke thing out there. There’s two benches on either side, on both sides.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: And he’s on the one to the left.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay. He’s on the one on the left. All right we’re just letting the officers know because there are officers out there.

    ROBERT HILTON: Yep absolutely.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: So.

    ROBERT HILTON: He’s wave, he’s uh I think he’s waving or pointing to me, to the officers, I’m not sure. I can’t really, yeah, yep, he’s, he’s talking to the officer, he’s pointing to him right now. He, he.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: He’s talking to the officers now?

    ROBERT HILTON: Yeah he’s still sitting.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: The, there’s three of them. There’s three of them here now.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    ROBERT HILTON: Yep. They’re taking his gun out of his holster now.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: All right. What is your name?

    ROBERT HILTON: Uh, Robert Hilton.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Robert Hilton?

    ROBERT HILTON: Yep.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: All right (cuts out)

    ROBERT HILTON: Yeah the officers probably won’t be able to help me with this, I mean, is it, is it.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Do you have a cell phone number or like a number we can reach you at if you’re not at the establishment?

    ROBERT HILTON: Yes I do.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: What is it?

    ROBERT HILTON: It’s (203).

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Is this a cell or home?

    ROBERT HILTON: Cell phone. (203).

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Uh-huh.

    ROBERT HILTON: 631.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Uh-huh.

    ROBERT HILTON: 2428.

    DISPATCHER SEVELOWITZ: Okay.

    LT. MARTINO: Hello.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Hey are you familiar with uh, they amended the statute so you’re able to open carry in public?

    LT. MARTINO: What, uh, where’s that? Where’s that written?

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: That’s what I’m asking you.

    LT. MARTINO: I don’t know anything about that.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Oh yeah, neither do I.

    LT. MARTINO: It’s a concealed, it’s a concealed weapons permit.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Yeah that’s what I said.

    LT. MARTINO: Let me, but I have an application right here. Let me look. Hold on.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: See if it’s been changed.

    LT. MARTINO: Yeah hold on.

    Not part of the original transcript but very interesting observation:

    There seems to have been some type of contact between Lt. Martino and a Lt. William Wright THE DEPARTMENT'S ADMINSTRATIVE LIEUTENANT regarding this situation which is evident in the following paragrah where Lt. Martino tells Sgt. Colavolpe what "Wright said".

    I WONDER WHY THAT CONVERSATION IS NOT HERE IF A CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.

    LT. MARTINO: Hey.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Yeah.

    LT. MARTINO: Wright said there was something in the legislature about some guy, some NRA attorney that wanted to argue this statute. It says, it’s saying that it doesn’t say it has to be concealed, it says you have to have a permit to carry and I guess he, I guess he won the argument. The problem is, and like the idea with Bill Wright is, just because it’s, just because they may interpret it that way doesn’t mean you can walk into a bar with your gun out and then refuse to conceal it and then walk around outside with your gun out. So we need to charge, we need to charge him with the breach.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Absolutely, he’s already under arrest for beach.

    LT. MARTINO: Yeah at least and uh, you know, I, I would even take it a step further and maybe come back in and call uh, the state police and maybe talk to one of the guys in the know there.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Yep.

    LT. MARTINO: And see what their position on it is.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Yeah.

    LT. MARTINO: But uh.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Well absolutely, at a minimum the breach because he caused a disturbance down here.


    LT. MARTINO: Right.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Every, everybody’s freaking out.

    LT. MARTINO: Right, oh no absolutely.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Okay.

    LT. MARTINO: Yeah okay.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: I’ll see you shortly.

    LT. MARTINO: Always fun and games.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Oh yeah.

    LT. MARTINO: Bye.

    SGT. COLAVOLPE: Bye.
    Last edited by Edward Peruta; 07-12-2010 at 12:34 PM.

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    All I could think of reading this was...

    Keystone Kops.

    I gotta hand it to the dispatcher for at least saying he didn't point it at anyone, but I'm sure by the time they all got there hopped up on adrenalin they were itching to do something, anything, right or wrong.. and they chose wrong.

    There's a huge need for remedial training shown here, the sargeant who should have known better and the LT who should have known even more so were making things up.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    This would make for a great comedy if it were not real.

    He didn't do anything illegal, but people are upset with his behavior, so he is arrested for disturbing the peace.

    Firearms training cannot fix that level of stupid. Trying to train these Keystone Kops would be a waste of time. Shame on the Wallingford Police for hiring people that cannot understand basic principles and apply those principles.

    Stupid is as stupid does,
    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I don't find any of the officers 'stupid'. I personally don't think it's possible for every officer to know EVERY law and interpet them. They are there to protect and serve.

    Either way there was a scene and someone was upset. So police got called and they showed up. Only thing they could to do was difuse the situation and that's arrest for preace of peace. Right or wrong its the same if you were scared of the neighbors pitbull or anything.

    I do agree that the arrest should not have happened but the LEO's were just doing a job.

    Unfortually, I don't feel this kind of arrest will stop anytime soon as it's still NOT common place in CT. Everyone still thinks (for some reason) that only in Texas people OC. We know that's not the case that they only CC. (At least this is always the conversation I seem to have with friends and peopel in general.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbnlnk121 View Post
    I don't find any of the officers 'stupid'. I personally don't think it's possible for every officer to know EVERY law and interpet them. They are there to protect and serve.

    Either way there was a scene and someone was upset. So police got called and they showed up. Only thing they could to do was difuse the situation and that's arrest for preace of peace. Right or wrong its the same if you were scared of the neighbors pitbull or anything.

    I do agree that the arrest should not have happened but the LEO's were just doing a job.

    Unfortually, I don't feel this kind of arrest will stop anytime soon as it's still NOT common place in CT. Everyone still thinks (for some reason) that only in Texas people OC. We know that's not the case that they only CC. (At least this is always the conversation I seem to have with friends and peopel in general.)

    OC is illegal in Texas, heck they only got a carry permit system a few years ago. Before that you could bring one in your car but had to leave it there. They consider your car an extension of your home.

    I do agree with most of the rest of your thoughts though. I said it before & still hope I'm wrong but I think bringing the fact of OC legality to light will create momentum to require concealment.
    I think though that for now Rick B's case together with Goldbergs have educated alot of departments. I cant get a confirmation from my chief but I know he circulated an E-mail I sent him about it thru the dept. I strongly suspect you'ld get checked out but not arested if someone called about a person OCing in Norwalk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbnlnk121 View Post
    I don't find any of the officers 'stupid'. I personally don't think it's possible for every officer to know EVERY law and interpret them. They are there to protect and serve.

    Either way there was a scene and someone was upset. So police got called and they showed up. Only thing they could to do was diffuse the situation and that's arrest for peace of peace. Right or wrong its the same if you were scared of the neighbors pit bull or anything.

    I do agree that the arrest should not have happened but the LEO's were just doing a job.

    Unfortunately, I don't feel this kind of arrest will stop anytime soon as it's still NOT common place in CT. Everyone still thinks (for some reason) that only in Texas people OC. We know that's not the case that they only CC. (At least this is always the conversation I seem to have with friends and people in general.)
    I took the liberty of correcting a couple of spelling mistakes.

    The law is the law, it's not there to make people "feel safe"

    What if there were a group of Black teens listening to rap on a boom box and making someone upset? right or wrong the police have a job to do and they arrest for breach or peace.. they are only doing a job. See how far that takes you.

    Who was making the scene? it wasn't Rich it was Mark Vanaman - Ok so if there should have been any arrests made it should have been him.. Cops chose, CHOSE C H O S E to arrest Rich, they didn't get ANY contradictory statements from other witnesses, hell they didn't even call them up after the fact. They talked to Vanaman and made a WRONG decision then. Had they been wise they could have asked for more than 1 or 2 statements, they could have asked other people, they could have asked the manager "Who made the scene in here?" They didn't. They rushed to judgment - all of them from the beat cop to the Lieutenant and that was STUPID.

    They could have called the state police right then and there, I'm sure DPS has an on-call type deal. If DPS wrote the memo about the 2nd amendment march stating OC is legal then they ARE aware of it. They could have gotten the State Police on-call person, there has to be one and asked. They'd have found out that OC is legal and could have gone to Rich, apologized, returned his firearm and my guess is that he'd have shook their hand and that would be the end of it. They could have then gone over to the rabid bailbondsman and said "He was right, you are wrong in this instance. You may want to stop spouting your opinions off as fact and causing a disturbance"

    Do I think the cops went out that night looking to violate Rich's rights? No I don't, but did they do their due dilligence in assuring his rights weren't violated? No they sure the hell didn't.

    And to your comment about do we expect the police to know each and every law? well if they DON'T know something is specifically against the law then the burden of proof is on them otherwise they have to err on the side of liberty. They didn't, they made stuff up as they went along and wound up with a load of egg on their collective faces. If Rich's dad was an attorney who enjoyed this kind of stuff he could eat that department for lunch.. and they know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabbitone View Post
    With the TX comment, I think they were referring to the fact that the antis like to spout "You want to OC? What do you think this is TX????" And yes your absolutely correct our state currently does not allow the OC of handguns in any form aside for private property.

    I think your right to a degree, but most people around here think Texas laws are similar to Arizona & New Mexico and therefore believe it even though its a cliche.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    but people are upset with his behavior
    You use the plural form of that, but no one on scene was upset except for Mark Vanaman which is who caused the scene. I note that Sgt. Colavolpe says people are freaking out, but everyone was very calm and relaxed on scene except for Mr. Vanaman and most people were outside to give a statement to my credit. No surprise that the officers never took a single statement from those people who were 'freaking out', right? Wouldn't that have been key evidence to their case against me?

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbnlnk121 View Post
    Either way there was a scene and someone was upset. So police got called and they showed up. Only thing they could to do was difuse the situation and that's arrest for preace of peace. Right or wrong its the same if you were scared of the neighbors pitbull or anything.
    Are you suggesting that if you are walking your dog and I am scared of dogs that I can call the police and have you arrested for breach of peace?

    Note that I was not charged with breach of peace. They learned that breach of peace would not be a valid charge while I was being booked. Not to say disorderly conduct was a better idea for them...

    I do agree that the arrest should not have happened but the LEO's were just doing a job.
    It is not their job to arrest law abiding people who are not breaking any laws. It is their job to take the complaint of the people on scene and at the police department when they are being told they are arresting the wrong person.

    Unfortually, I don't feel this kind of arrest will stop anytime soon as it's still NOT common place in CT.
    Where do you get this information from? I OC all the time in CT, as do many people. We don't have many arrests for OC at all in CT. Most incidents are very friendly and easy.

    I hate to say this, but you seem to just be spouting decades old fairy tales that people like Mark Vanaman and the Wallingford PD use to try and say that CT law is somehow 'vague'. When something is legal, it does not matter if it is 'common place' or not. It is legal. That is all that matters.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldCoaster View Post
    Ithey could have asked the manager "Who made the scene in here?"
    They didn't need to. It is right in the transcript from Robert Hilton to dispatch that I did not cause a scene, Mark Vanaman did.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldCoaster View Post
    They could have gotten the State Police on-call person, there has to be one and asked. They'd have found out that OC is legal and could have gone to Rich, apologized, returned his firearm and my guess is that he'd have shook their hand and that would be the end of it.
    I am pretty sure that is what happened, but the police department didn't know how to just apologize and let me go, so they decided to stick the disorderly conduct charge on me. Not a single officer on scene or afterwards could give me any reasonable explanation for the charge. The current explanation seems to be that they think my lawful carry of a firearm caused a scene (and that Mark Vanaman had no free will in his actions?) and that I did not leave the scene, even though I did, and I had permission from the owner to wait outside. Not to mention I was never asked to leave, I volunteered. Go figure.

    They could have then gone over to the rabid bailbondsman and said "He was right, you are wrong in this instance. You may want to stop spouting your opinions off as fact and causing a disturbance"
    As I told the PD, I would have been fine with that on that night. That would have been the best possible solution. I am not a big believer in someone always having to go to jail anytime police respond. We could have discussed the law, educated everyone involved, shook hands and parted ways.

    Do I think the cops went out that night looking to violate Rich's rights? No I don't, but did they do their due dilligence in assuring his rights weren't violated? No they sure the hell didn't.
    Agreed. They had zero evidence or reasonable suspicion on scene that I had committed any crime including breach of peace or disorderly conduct. They still have none.

    And to your comment about do we expect the police to know each and every law? well if they DON'T know something is specifically against the law then the burden of proof is on them otherwise they have to err on the side of liberty. They didn't, they made stuff up as they went along and wound up with a load of egg on their collective faces. If Rich's dad was an attorney who enjoyed this kind of stuff he could eat that department for lunch.. and they know it.
    Agreed, and don't rule anything out just yet.

  12. #12
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    Did they arrest you and take you to jail or just issue a citation? If it was a citation why did you sign it?

  13. #13
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Did they arrest you and take you to jail or just issue a citation? If it was a citation why did you sign it?
    I was arrested and released on a Promise to Appear.

    Read more here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...for-Open-Carry

  14. #14
    Regular Member Jonathon Norris's Avatar
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    My buddy and I were arrested on JULY 4th for disorderly conduct while peacefully OC'ing. Taken to jail, weapons confiscated, permit revoked. All of this by the Birmingham Police Dept. Bull Connor, much? We've got a lawyer, of course. Check out the Alabama sub forum for the thread.
    A wayfarer should not walk unarmed,
    But have his weapons to hand:
    He knows not when he may need a spear,
    Or what menace meet on the road.

    - Odin
    The Havamal

  15. #15
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Norris View Post
    My buddy and I were arrested on JULY 4th for disorderly conduct while peacefully OC'ing. Taken to jail, weapons confiscated, permit revoked. All of this by the Birmingham Police Dept. Bull Connor, much? We've got a lawyer, of course. Check out the Alabama sub forum for the thread.
    Sounds much worse than my case. I will check it out. Good luck with your case!

  16. #16
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Dayum! I look at Goldcoaster's second comment and I can't even add to it....

    'nuff said!

    Sad part is...... Rich was actually the harmed party when his rights were violated. Being arrested for the ignorance of another party is just insane.

    What's worse....... if you break ANYONE'S CIVIL RIGHTS, it' son the evening news...... unless it's a second amendment case...... then it just doesn't matter.....

    Jonathan

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