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Thread: 12 Jul 10 - Ruck Hump - Open Carry - Police Called (VIDEO LINK)

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    12 Jul 10 - Ruck Hump - Open Carry - Police Called (VIDEO LINK)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joYMHtUU2k

    I am 43 years old, I some times ruck up and hump a few klicks for a workout... Being retired from the US Army Infantry, doing stupid chit like this gets in your blood (Plus its a hell of a good workout!). So today I get my M-12 holster in the mail and decide to open carry while I do my periodic ruck hump.

    Some nutjob calls me into the police, as a nutjob with a gun. :-) Roanoke County Police were professional and courteous.

    Enjoy-
    Andrew
    Last edited by ElevenBravo; 07-12-2010 at 07:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Being retired from the US Army Infantry, doing stupid chit like this gets in your blood
    Yeah, I've noticed. It's like I told a buddy of mine, he's retired Airborne.... I tell him "Damn Army guys, jumping out of perfectly good airplanes....."

    The he calls me Chairforce, and everything is right with the world.

    Glad to see you had a good time with minimal hassle.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I love how the plainclothes guy waved.

    If I may, I'll suggest that you do not volunteer your driver's license or concealed handgun permit in the future. You weren't driving and had no obligation to provide a VADL. You were open carrying and had no obligation to provide a CHP. I made the same mistake once at the beginning of what appeared to be a friendly encounter. It won't ever happen again.
    Last edited by t33j; 07-12-2010 at 08:41 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Ya no dl from me either. The last thing I would want in the middle of a 6mile hike is to sit for 5minutes getting my name run for no reason when my legs are cramping up
    btw how do you stand hiking along the road? I go to clear my head and hearing cars woosh by ruins it for me!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    That was a great video!
    TJ was right. I never give ID unless I have a reason to.

    I have to admit they were pretty descent cops and I may have forked it over too. It is a bad habit to get into though.
    If you hadn't had the camera on, it may have been a different encounter. A loaded video camera is the most powerful weapon you have.

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Well, I got the feeling someone did legitimately call me in, so I was happy to co-operate. I subscribe to the premise that if I did nothing wrong I have nothing to fear. Plus my CHP came back from dispatch, they knew then I was a "good joe" and not some weirdo. (Okay, I may be weird... but Im not a weirdo!) They said have a good day and good bye as soon as dispatch keyed off the mic from giving my pedigree.

    Video shot on a Flip UltraHD, I recommend it to everyone wanting to shoot video with great quality on a budget. (I have prosumer HD cameras too, but I dont take $700 cameras on a hike with me).

    Andrew

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    I'll suggest that you do not volunteer your driver's license
    The detective was the first responder, he asked me for my ID, I didnt just volunteer it. As a matter of fact, if they never asked for it, I had no intentions of showing anything but my Army tatoo, just in case they like the look of crossed flitlocks :-)

    Andrew

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    The detective was the first responder, he asked me for my ID, I didnt just volunteer it. As a matter of fact, if they never asked for it, I had no intentions of showing anything but my Army tatoo, just in case they like the look of crossed flitlocks :-)

    Andrew
    Yes, he asked and you were not required to accommodate him. This is where know the law is important. It's tough to.

    It's not my objective to ridicule but I do like to offer constructive criticism. What you have to fear is being harassed by the police, robbed of your time and right to be secure in your person and effects... namely being placed under detention (illegally) and having your person searched and possibly your property seized. You should fear the cop who thinks it's his business to get in yours even though you've broken no laws.
    Last edited by t33j; 07-12-2010 at 09:35 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    The detective was the first responder, he asked me for my ID, I didnt just volunteer it. As a matter of fact, if they never asked for it, I had no intentions of showing anything but my Army tatoo, just in case they like the look of crossed flitlocks :-)

    Andrew
    It's a personal decision and I don't like to set rules as some do. Guidelines are more like it.

    I don't show ID unless I need to to get into secured areas. I have a video of me just saying no when I was tired of listening to them fuss.
    No court in the world could say there was any misunderstanding about what NO means.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    I subscribe to the premise that if I did nothing wrong I have nothing to fear.
    Then watch this:


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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Then watch this:
    Thank you for the vid link, I am downloading it now to watch later, glanced at a few parts of it, looks like a good watch. Thanks again.

    Andrew

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    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    Hey 11B...good to hear the cops didn't point their weapons at you after some blissninny called them out and the dispatcher failed to do his or her job properly

    Never give ID if you don't have to. By "volunteering" it, you're reinforcing the police paradigm of unconditional cooperation. We don't live in such a society (yet) and it's better to avoid enhancing that mindset in state agents.

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 230therapy View Post
    Hey 11B...good to hear the cops didn't point their weapons at you after some blissninny called them out and the dispatcher failed to do his or her job properly

    Never give ID if you don't have to. By "volunteering" it, you're reinforcing the police paradigm of unconditional cooperation. We don't live in such a society (yet) and it's better to avoid enhancing that mindset in state agents.
    Yup, Im learning.... see link:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ference-please

    I am ignorant, and trying to learn. I also want to "do the right thing", so education for me, and others... will be key. The document I am trying to draft is party of that process, and I hope to serve as a tool to other citizen's that are not fully aware of there rights and responsibilities.

    Cheers-
    Andrew

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Yup, Im learning.... see link:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ference-please

    I am ignorant, and trying to learn. I also want to "do the right thing", so education for me, and others... will be key. The document I am trying to draft is party of that process, and I hope to serve as a tool to other citizen's that are not fully aware of there rights and responsibilities.

    Cheers-
    Andrew
    Michigan has this up for LEO interactions. See http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...H-RINSE-REPEAT
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Yes, he asked and you were not required to accommodate him. This is where know the law is important. It's tough to.

    It's not my objective to ridicule but I do like to offer constructive criticism. What you have to fear is being harassed by the police, robbed of your time and right to be secure in your person and effects... namely being placed under detention (illegally) and having your person searched and possibly your property seized. You should fear the cop who thinks it's his business to get in yours even though you've broken no laws.
    So he offered up his i.d. during a consensual positive encounter with some LEO's who just ran him to make sure he wasn't wanted/convicted felon and he went on his way...and you want to give him constructive criticism? Nothing was illegal about this encounter, there was no detention at all, and both the police and man left with a positive experience. The officers have a duty to check out calls about a "crazy man with a gun being suspicious". In order to catch criminals (people do commit crimes you know), officers do need to investigate... and it's inevitable that they investigate innocent people as well. Personally I believe being professional and offering your identification promotes the image of open carry to LEO's. Of course if the encounter is not going the way you want it, you can request your i.d. back and walk away (as long as no criminal activity is suspected of course).

    That youtube video is not completely true. I have changed my mind plenty of times and didn't arrest a suspect which I planned to, after speaking with them (along with all of my coworkers). If you keep your mouth shut and refuse to cooperate, then only one side of the story is portrayed. You may find yourself with an arrest put on your record along with spending a ton of money trying to defend yourself in court. Hmm...the man is/was a defense attorney, so of course he would enjoy adding some new clients to his list. Most arrests don't require the arrestee to speak to convict them anyway. I'm not saying that all LEOs are the most professional people out there, but I will say that it is a small majority. LEOs aren't out there to illegally seize you and your property. We don't gain anything from that obviously, besides opening up ourselves (and department) up to civil, criminal, and employment consequences (not to mention all the paperwork that is involved in seizures/arrests).

    I'm all for you expressing your personal rights, and if you didn't want to show your i.d. or talk, then fine (although like I mentioned above, I don't think it's a good choice). I am against you stating that you should fear police.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 07-14-2010 at 01:57 AM.

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    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Nothing was illegal about this encounter
    Actually sir, after the detective took my DL he told me after the check came back I was free to go, so I was temporarily being detained. But there was no reasonable suspension or probable cause to detain me. But in fairness, I had not mentioned it before.

    I was ignorant of my rights, and I gave them away. These fine people educated me, and now I am armed with knowledge.

    I now, in all seriousness, believe that it was a passing by Roanoke County Deputy that called me in, because the same car that went by 5 minutes prior, came BACK again. I feel it takes a bit of a trained eye to recognize an M12 holster with a weapon in it.

    The police are legally allowed to lie, however I can only tell the truth, and everything I say will be used to construct justification for an arrest. My best option was ****, but I had already said too much.

    I fear those.. that fear me.
    Last edited by ElevenBravo; 07-14-2010 at 02:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Actually sir, after the detective took my DL he told me after the check came back I was free to go, so I was temporarily being detained. But there was no reasonable suspension or probable cause to detain me. But in fairness, I had not mentioned it before.

    I was ignorant of my rights, and I gave them away. These fine people educated me, and now I am armed with knowledge.

    I now, in all seriousness, believe that it was a passing by Roanoke County Deputy that called me in, because the same car that went by 5 minutes prior, came BACK again. I feel it takes a bit of a trained eye to recognize an M12 holster with a weapon in it.

    The police are legally allowed to lie, however I can only tell the truth, and everything I say will be used to construct justification for an arrest. My best option was ****, but I had already said too much.

    I fear those.. that fear me.

    Sir, I believe you stated in your original post that he ASKED for your i.d...thus constituting a consensual encounter regardless if he told you that you are free to go after they finished. Of course police are able to lie, it would be difficult to catch criminals if you were honest with them. The road seemed like a well traveled road, and would seem likely that a passing motorist called you in.

    Gave up your rights? How so? No rights were violated, so you didn't give anything up. You acted in a professional manner and so did they. Now they know who you are and now have your respect if there are future encounters.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't mean any disrespect to any of our regular posters, but, it doesn't really matter what any of the circumstances are that lead up to it: in my humble opinion, for the entire time a police officer holds your identification, you are in fact, not actually free to go.

    I do not consider abandoning my identification to be an option that is equal to "free to go".

    I don't expect all to agree with that, but that's how I see it, and you will be very hard pressed to convince me otherwise. I tend to live in a practical world.

    TFred

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    Everyone knows if you have a gun and something "military looking" on you , you must be a jihadist. Maybe it was the orange flag that gave you away . LOL


    No hate mail, I'm just being sarcastic.

    Fort Benning, GA - 1988 (Harmony Church)
    Last edited by Anthony_I_Am; 07-14-2010 at 03:39 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    Actually sir, after the detective took my DL he told me after the check came back I was free to go, so I was temporarily being detained. But there was no reasonable suspension or probable cause to detain me.
    Well, sort of, but not exactly.

    There is something called Investigatory Detention, which sounds to me like what happened. You did not have to give your physical id card to the officer, but rather you simply could have identified yourself.

    I'll refer to this explanation of Investigatory Detention, since it explains it in a pretty simple manner -

    Under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, a police officer is permitted to detain an individual for investigative purposes if the officer believes, based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion, that the individual is engaged in criminal activity, even if there is no probable cause to make an arrest. The ability to detain an individual under these circumstances is typically referred to as investigative detention.

    The purpose of such a detention is to maintain the status quo while investigating the circumstances that give rise to the suspicion of criminal wrongdoing.

    Once a lawful stop is made, a police officer's suspicions may become further aroused and the stop may be prolonged and the scope enlarged as required by the circumstances, provided the scope of the investigation remains within the limits created by the facts upon which the stop is predicated and the suspicion which they arouse.

    Thus, the permissibility of a particular law enforcement practice is judged by balancing its intrusion on the individual's Fourth Amendment interests against its promotion of legitimate governmental interests. The intrusion must be confined to what is minimally necessary under the circumstances.

    The courts have not established a maximum time period that police may constitutionally detain a suspect. The test is reasonableness under the circumstances.



    So let's look at the facts as we know them. Each of these things may be viewed separately as different, or unusual, but let's look at them in totality and see the big picture that an officer must see...

    1) Someone called the police and reported, as you said a "nutjob with a gun". The police said "someone suspicious with a gun". Any MWAG call is always going to get someone's attention.

    2) You are walking down the road videotaping yourself.

    3) You are wearing a ruck which to the average person looks like some kind of weird contraption with a bunch of straps across the chest.

    4) You have a military style holster on with a firearm.

    5) You have a large orange bicycle flag attached to your body and it sticks straight up in the air.

    6) When an unmarked detective drove by, he saw you laying on the side of the road....possibly injured? Who knows?

    I think a brief, investigative detention is justified in this case, just to ensure that everything is cool. I think a brief stop to check things out is not so intrusive as to be considered unreasonable. That again is simply my opinion as I am obviously not an attorney.
    Last edited by ProShooter; 07-14-2010 at 08:37 AM.
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    A question of duty

    This is a question for those present and former officers who repeatedly affirm that an officer is duty-bound to investigate any MWAG call.

    Isn't it logical that an LEO's duty extends as much to investigate whoever placed what turns out to be an unwarranted MWAG call? Perhaps one where they are fully aware no crime has been committed, perhaps simply to annoy the LAC? You know, like a hate crime? Filing a false report? Diverting public resources from legitimate enforcement?
    Last edited by architect; 07-14-2010 at 10:22 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by architect View Post
    This is a question for those present and former officers who repeatedly affirm that an officer is duty-bound to investigate any MWAG call.

    Isn't it logical that an LEO's duty extends as much to investigate whoever placed what turns out to be an unwarranted MWAG call? Perhaps one where they are fully aware no crime has been committed, perhaps simply to annoy the LAC? You know, like a hate crime? Filing a false report? Diverting public resources from legitimate enforcement?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you saying that the LEO should investigate the complainant as well as the subject of the complaint?
    James Reynolds

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  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    A month ago I got a call from an OV member that had Dog Hunters on his property.

    He called the CO (Game Warrden) who came out, They made an excuse about hunting Coyotes and they were just getting their dogs.

    I talked to the Officer later and it wasn't a pleasant conversation. He hadn't even taken an incident report even though a couple of dog hunters were close to being shot, were clearly breaking the law and the peoperty owner had asked him to.

    His exact words were "I'm not required to".

    Actually, he's right. he was not legally required to.

    Same with giving ID. You're not required to!
    I wonder how many people give their SSN on their CHP application?
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-14-2010 at 10:36 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I wonder how many people give their SSN on their CHP application?
    I would bet the number is high!
    James Reynolds

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  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I would bet the number is high!
    I'm kind glad you said that because I expected to get the "No One" answer, which wouldn't be true.

    Lots of people do it. Some because they don't know any better, some because they think it will go through faster and some because they think honest people have nothing to hide.

    Same reason people show ID when they don't have to.

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