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Thread: Response from Mike Cox re MI Registration; other weapons; Section 5o CPL restrictions

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Candidates for Gov re MI Registration; other weapons; Section 5o CPL restrictions

    On Wednesday, July 7, 2010 I contacted Mike Cox's gubernatorial campaign regarding Mr Cox's opinion of specific aspects of Michigan law which are, in my opinion, arguably unconstitutional. The reason I chose Mr Cox is twofold: he has a large number of people here who have said positive things about him and, as attorney general of Michigan, he is in the unique position to effect a sense of doubt ie, that some of Michigan's current laws are at least ARGUABLY unconstitutional.
    Some of you may think that I am unduly "harsh" in my questions. My reasoning is that as Michigan's Attorney General, Mr. Cox could categorically state that some of Michigan's laws were "questionable" and this would at least garner support from the 2A community across Michigan to get these issues out in the public arena. What follows is my original email and the subsequent response from Sarah Ledford (ostensibly a representative from among his campaign staff). I will withhold further comment from this and get your opinion(s). Is Michael Cox worthy of strong support from the OC community? I will again contact the campaign asking for clarification of the answers sent me, as well as a response from OTHER candidates in the August primary.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-12-2010 at 11:58 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    My Question...

    Mr. Cox,

    I will consider giving my support to you... but first a question.

    Right before the 4th of July, the US Supreme Court upheld the fundamental right of all Americans to keep and bear arms and that self-defense is the basis of the freedoms protected by the 2nd amendment.

    Recently, a District Attorney in Wisconsin declared that he is refusing to prosecute any violations of Wisconsin law which are infringements of the right of self-defense.
    see:
    http://www.co.jackson.wi.us/html/dis...%20Chicago.pdf

    In your position as the Attorney General for the State of Michigan, you signed an Amicus Brief sent to the US Supreme Court indicating that you supported the incorporation of the 2nd Amendment to all of the states.

    I, therefore, would like to see you, Mr. Cox, declare that you too support the right of ALL Americans to defend themselves. To this end you should go on the record that Michigan's requirement that only residents can register pistols is unconstitutional. Additionally, Michigan's knife laws, the prohibition of Tasers, the prohibition of pepper spray containing more than 10% of the active ingredient,the limitations imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Weapons Act, and many other provisions of Michigan law are all unconstitutional infringements upon US citizens' fundamental right to self-defense. Are you willing to do this? Or, as is often the case regarding "politicians", will you profess your support for the constitution but do nothing to put your words into action?

    I, and many other citizens, await your reply
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    The Response...

    Dear Dr. Todd,

    Thank you for contacting the Mike Cox 2010 for Governor Campaign! As Attorney General, Mike has been an adamant fighter of our right to bear arms and will continue to do so as Michigan's next Governor. He has fought to expand our second amendment rights since coming into office 8 years ago.

    Since 2003, reciprocity has been expanded from 8 states to 36 states. Because Mike Cox has made this a priority as Attorney General, a Michigan concealed pistol licensee who wishes to carry a concealed pistol in another state is able to carry in 36 other states. Similarly, Michigan's concealed pistol law expressly recognizes permits issued by other states to its residences under MCL 28.432a.

    Not only that, but Mike has fought with the National Rifle Association's challenge of a City of Chicago ordinance banning possession of most handguns by bringing the issue all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. "The right to keep and bear arms is fundamental. No government should impinge on the basic right to defend yourself".

    Mike has also written numerous op eds in national newspapers defending the second amendment. I have provided the link below to the article for you as well.
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110010898

    Mike understands the complexities involved with being a veteran. I can guarantee you no other candidate for Governor recognizes the self-sacrifice and honor of being a veteran - because he is one himself. Mike joined the Marines at the age of 19. Mike's dedication to this country is what propels him to fight every day for our freedoms and liberties.

    Mike feels the same passion that you do to help turn Michigan around and make the State great again. With your help and encouragement, we can do it.

    If you would like to learn more about Mike’s ideas for fixing Michigan, I highly encourage you to check out Mike’s comprehensive Plan “Putting Michigan Back to Work: The First Steps”. No other candidate has a plan as detailed and specific as Mike:

    http://mikecox2010.com/issues

    Thank you for your support Todd,

    Sarah Ledford
    Mike Cox 2010
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    That response was mildly useless.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    That response was mildly useless.
    Hrmmm I would say more like completely useless as not one question was addressed... she just quoted his campaign points!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    I agree. Politics as usual.

    That's not going to get the job done where PFZs are concerned.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    A whole lotta fluff, not much substance. I would give it an "F" for Failure and send it back stating that unless you get specific answers to the questions, a negative response will be going to "the media". Stand for Something (right/wrong/indifferent), or Fall for Anything.

    I believe that the question should be asked of all candidates, although I understand and agree with your sending it to Mike Cox first.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Hrmmm I would say more like completely useless as not one question was addressed... she just quoted his campaign points!
    Yup. Sad.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    A whole lotta fluff, not much substance. I would give it an "F" for Failure and send it back stating that unless you get specific answers to the questions, a negative response will be going to "the media". Stand for Something (right/wrong/indifferent), or Fall for Anything.

    I believe that the question should be asked of all candidates, although I understand and agree with your sending it to Mike Cox first.
    I am writing all of the candidates... should be ready to go tomorrow. I will also be sending a "re-email" to Cox's campaign.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-12-2010 at 11:13 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I am writing all of the candidates... should be ready to go tomorrow. I will also be sending a "re-email" to Cox's campaign.
    Schweet! Maybe change the name of the thread so that all responses can be shown here???

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Schweet! Maybe change the name of the thread so that all responses can be shown here???
    I was thinking the same thing. How do I do that?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. How do I do that?

    Ask John Pierce to do it for ya!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Ask John Pierce to do it for ya!
    I changed it
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    A whole lotta fluff, not much substance. I would give it an "F" for Failure and send it back stating that unless you get specific answers to the questions, a negative response will be going to "the media".
    I would give him an "I" (incomplete), which usually changes to an "F" if not completed in time.
    I agree in theory about a response like you propose BUT this is 2010... WE are "the media". I can post something on the internet and have whatever I post read by millions of people by the time a staffer finishes her cup of coffee. Any public official (or staffer) who answers an email and doesn't think that it will wind up in the 'interweb' is naive and out of touch with the world today.
    My suspicion is that Mike Cox wants to garner the support of 2Aers and LEOs too and anyone else, too. Better to state what you've done (politically 'safe' because "CPL recognition" is something that doesn't affect things HERE in MI) and he can get or maintain support on relatively 'safe' issues.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  16. #16
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I would give him an "I" (incomplete), which usually changes to an "F" if not completed in time.
    I agree in theory about a response like you propose BUT this is 2010... WE are "the media". I can post something on the internet and have whatever I post read by millions of people by the time a staffer finishes her cup of coffee. Any public official (or staffer) who answers an email and doesn't think that it will wind up in the 'interweb' is naive and out of touch with the world today.
    My suspicion is that Mike Cox wants to garner the support of 2Aers and LEOs too and anyone else, too. Better to state what you've done (politically 'safe' because "CPL recognition" is something that doesn't affect things HERE in MI) and he can get or maintain support on relatively 'safe' issues.
    When I said "the media", I meant right here on OCDO!

    Google picks up posts VERY, VERY quickly from this site.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    When I said "the media", I meant right here on OCDO!

    Google picks up posts VERY, VERY quickly from this site.
    I know you did Just figured you wanted to give Cox's staff fair warning.

    Tried to change the title... which only changed it in the post. Oh well, try tomorrow I guess.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Schweet! Maybe change the name of the thread so that all responses can be shown here???
    I would think that this

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...24#post1306224

    thread would also be appropriate to post responses from politicians.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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    Lol, I was in the College Libertarians with Sarah at U of M. She's one of Mike's campaign managers now. She would support what you're saying personally, but I guess Mike isn't ready to go that far. Honestly, I'm distrustful of the establishment too generally to support most of the popular candidates.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Lots of bragging , and patting ones own back, but where is the actual answer to the question asked?

    This is typical of politicians and won't change until we replace all politicians with"Statesmen"

    Bragging that he suddenly eight years ago became aware of rights isn't a bragging point.

    Whomever wrote this letter on his behalf needs to be replaced with someone who can actually write a letter that says something. I have been involved in the political arena and am full aware of how one must be careful to not give the liberal media something to use against myself.

    I wonder how he fought with the NRA? If writing op eds is the golden calf of getting elected then I should be the King. I have written so many in the last close to 40 years I lost count.

    The most glaring point in that letter is the "He has fought to expand our second amendment rights"
    EXCUSE ME?! Expand? How about this Mike, Just give them back as they were enumerated and I will be fine with that. The word expand is dangerous, and careless. How can one expand the universal right to keep and bear arms WITHOUT infringement? If we were to just go back to the founding fathers ORIGINAL intent we would have the right to purchase any firearms without a microscope showed up our a$$, and we would not have to register (beg for rights) our firearms. The gun control act of 1968 would be gone and their would be the right to carry any damn way you please without getting on your knees to beg the almighty King for your rights.

    Maybe I see things differently than most here, but I am 100% in favor or original intent of the constitution, and not this academic banter on how we can have rights while being slaves insanity.

    FREE means just that FREE of Government unless I have done something so terrible that I demonstrated the inability to control myself and need to be controlled, and I have yet to perform that function.

    Mike needs to give little Sarah a different position, I will assume she is a wonderful person but isn't savvy about politics as she may assume she is. Her intentions may be well, but in the political Colosseum, the liberal lions would tear her apart.

    I am putting my soap box away as most of the audience has once again fallen asleep....






    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Dear Dr. Todd,

    Thank you for contacting the Mike Cox 2010 for Governor Campaign! As Attorney General, Mike has been an adamant fighter of our right to bear arms and will continue to do so as Michigan's next Governor. He has fought to expand our second amendment rights since coming into office 8 years ago.

    Since 2003, reciprocity has been expanded from 8 states to 36 states. Because Mike Cox has made this a priority as Attorney General, a Michigan concealed pistol licensee who wishes to carry a concealed pistol in another state is able to carry in 36 other states. Similarly, Michigan's concealed pistol law expressly recognizes permits issued by other states to its residences under MCL 28.432a.

    Not only that, but Mike has fought with the National Rifle Association's challenge of a City of Chicago ordinance banning possession of most handguns by bringing the issue all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. "The right to keep and bear arms is fundamental. No government should impinge on the basic right to defend yourself".

    Mike has also written numerous op eds in national newspapers defending the second amendment. I have provided the link below to the article for you as well.
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110010898

    Mike understands the complexities involved with being a veteran. I can guarantee you no other candidate for Governor recognizes the self-sacrifice and honor of being a veteran - because he is one himself. Mike joined the Marines at the age of 19. Mike's dedication to this country is what propels him to fight every day for our freedoms and liberties.

    Mike feels the same passion that you do to help turn Michigan around and make the State great again. With your help and encouragement, we can do it.

    If you would like to learn more about Mike’s ideas for fixing Michigan, I highly encourage you to check out Mike’s comprehensive Plan “Putting Michigan Back to Work: The First Steps”. No other candidate has a plan as detailed and specific as Mike:

    http://mikecox2010.com/issues

    Thank you for your support Todd,

    Sarah Ledford
    Mike Cox 2010
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 07-13-2010 at 09:43 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  21. #21
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    I like your reply here bailenforcer, and agree.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 07-13-2010 at 09:46 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  22. #22
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    DrTodd,

    Send the letter in an envelope to me....I'll hand deliver it.

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    Should print this thread and hand deliver that. I think it would do more good.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    DrTodd,

    Send the letter in an envelope to me....I'll hand deliver it.
    PM sent.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:31 PM.

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