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Thread: "African Americans" OCing

  1. #1
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    "African Americans" OCing

    How many black people on here OCing?

    What has been your experience?

    I ask because I get questioned a lot. I have been detained three times by police, once I was with my daughter at Chic-Fil-A. No one called; a LEO was eating, saw me OCing and detained me.

    I wonder because I see several people post that they never have problems and if you conduct yourself a certain way you'll be fine OCing. I'm just trying to figure out the uncommon denominator.

    I know GPD has race issues; they even have internal racial tension: http://www.yesweekly.com/article-986...n-the-gpd.html

    Also, judging by comments by former LEOs such as NCjones
    Quote Originally Posted by NCjones View Post
    You're a nut, just like the African American who went packing at the abortion clinic then wanted to whine because he got jostled.
    it leads me to wonder if us "African Americans" should OC at all.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp49911 View Post
    ... it leads me to wonder if us "African Americans" should OC at all.
    Yes, you should.

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    Read up on the original BMWAG - Ken Blanchard
    http://www.blackmeninamerica.com/bmwag.htm
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    14th Amendment

    - I am sure your aware of (one of) the 14ths original intent was to protect newly freed men's right to keep and bear arms - so to answer your question - YES - You should always fight for your rights, then, now, and tomorrow, and ALL of us (black, white, asian, hispanic, men, women, of various race, religion and creed, etc, etc, - ) AMERICANS who believe in the bill of rights, and our country, and eachother need to stand strong together as equals in an effort to show the backward trogs and trolls that we can and will end up on top as a free people.

    - Do not let go of your freedom, you do not stand alone.

    Bat.

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    Not only should you, but you should do so proudly.

    Additionally you should take the time to fully read the majority opinions in McDonald V Chicago, There is extensive background on how gun control laws were used to disarm minorities post civil war.

    Additionally you might want to read this:

    http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheFreeman's Avatar
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    Might I ask how you dress when you OC?

    I usually make it a point to dress a bit more "business casual" whenever I OC due to my age (younger people are inherently prone to violence I guess).

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    Absolutely you should OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jp49911 View Post
    How many black people on here OCing?

    What has been your experience?

    I ask because I get questioned a lot. I have been detained three times by police, once I was with my daughter at Chic-Fil-A. No one called; a LEO was eating, saw me OCing and detained me.

    I wonder because I see several people post that they never have problems and if you conduct yourself a certain way you'll be fine OCing. I'm just trying to figure out the uncommon denominator.

    I know GPD has race issues; they even have internal racial tension: http://www.yesweekly.com/article-986...n-the-gpd.html

    Also, judging by comments by former LEOs such as NCjones
    it leads me to wonder if us "African Americans" should OC at all.
    I'm very shocked and disappointed by your reported experiences. While this country has came a long way, there's obviously still a way to go. Yes, you should excercise your rights.

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    Have you taken effective action to protect your right to not be detained?

    Quote Originally Posted by jp49911 View Post
    I have been detained three times by police,
    Have you taken effective action to protect your right to not be detained? Do you know what is arrest/detention and when it is wrong?

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    It is dangerous for a black person to carry, you know what danbus went through. Hell, it's dangerous for a white man who graduated from West Point, has a masters from Duke and is a medical device salesman to carry...

    In Tennessee in the 1870's they made all sorts of laws which basically restricted the black man's rights. The saturday night special laws and the army/navy in the hand laws are the ones which come to mind.

    As a black man if you sue cops for violating your rights you're still facing an uphill battle with the judge and jury. Racism is still very much alive.

    BTW, congratulations on the recent court victories!
    Last edited by kwikrnu; 07-13-2010 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Las Vegan View Post
    Yes, you should.

    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post

    In Tennessee in the 1870's they made all sorts of laws which basically restricted the black man's rights. The saturday night special laws and the army/navy in the hand laws are the ones which come to mind.

    The origin of Gun Control dates back to post Civil War times where certain folks were afraid of former slaves getting their hands on guns.

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    Hell yes

    Quote Originally Posted by jp49911 View Post
    How many black people on here OCing?

    What has been your experience?

    I ask because I get questioned a lot. I have been detained three times by police, once I was with my daughter at Chic-Fil-A. No one called; a LEO was eating, saw me OCing and detained me.

    I wonder because I see several people post that they never have problems and if you conduct yourself a certain way you'll be fine OCing. I'm just trying to figure out the uncommon denominator.

    I know GPD has race issues; they even have internal racial tension: http://www.yesweekly.com/article-986...n-the-gpd.html

    Also, judging by comments by former LEOs such as NCjones
    it leads me to wonder if us "African Americans" should OC at all.
    Carry a voice recorder, stay calm and search our great froum for information on how not to get violated. Be sure to research your state Laws regarding recording of conversations then have at it. then when they detain you unlawfully sue them. that is horsecrap in this day and age!!
    Last edited by BerettaFS92Custom; 07-13-2010 at 01:58 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO. I hope that race doesn't become an issue for you when you OC, but we all know that sometimes it does, so you need to prepare yourself.

    Grapeshot is dead-on with the Kenn Blanchard recommendation. Ken is a real "stand-up" guy, and has a TON of experience with firearms and the law. If you go searching the web for him, be sure to spell his name correctly though:

    Kenn Blanchard

    if you spell "Ken" with one "n", you'll get info on an old white guy who does corporate motivation seminars...

    Kenn has a Podcast that isn't specifically OC (he lives in MD, near the DC border, and even though he has a MC permit, and is an ex-Federal Agent and a minister now, OC isn't really an option for him...) But his show is funny, educational, and he addresses the problems that "people of color" have when it comes to exercising their gun rights.

    http://urbanshooterpodcast.com/

    Kenn has also written a small book addressing this issue, entitled "Black Man With A Gun," that addresses many of the issues you may face with family, friends, and your community as an African American exercising your Second Amendment rights:

    http://www.amazon.com/Black-Man-Gun-.../dp/156167656X

    There are also several members of this forum from NC that are "African American", so if you ask around, you might be able to get some pointers from them. I'm a white, middle-aged dude, so my personal experiences are only marginally applicable to what YOU may encounter.

    just remember, politeness is ALWAYS your friend. Be firm, but polite. Mouthing off or being rude or preachy to a cop will get you NOWHERE. Having a copy of the NC OC brochure in your pocket might be a good idea. And carrying a voice or video recorder is pretty much REQUIRED if the LEO's in your area are know for harassing OCers...

    You need to research and study the history of gun laws. This topic is PARTICULARLY important for you, because EVERY gun law on the books (not just in NC, but in EVERY state and on the federal level) was put in place due to racist attitudes. There is a FANTASTIC essay written by a scholar named Clayton E. Cramer entitled "The Racist Roots of Gun Control". It is a CRITICAL piece of reading for anyone interested in gun rights, civil rights, and racial issues in America:

    http://www.constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

    Please stay in touch, and let us know how things go for you. This forum is VERY supportive, and there are some folks on here who know the law VERY well and can give you pointers and advice that may help keep you out of trouble.

    The gun laws in NC are a little weird, and there are all sorts of little oddball exceptions where you CAN'T carry that just don't make any sense. So study the laws and ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS on this forum.

    The biggest advice I can give to you is DO NOT ask a cop for advice on gun laws. Most of them don't know the laws very well, and they tend to just make stuff up when they don't know, rather than say they don't know. I've actually had cops tell me things were illegal when the law says they are PERFECTLY legal, and I've also had cops tell me things were OK when they were plainly illegal under NC law. Cops can't be held legally responsible for giving bad or incorrect advice, but YOU can be held liable for know knowing the law if you break it.

    Knowing the law is YOUR responsibility. Ask lots of questions. If we don't know the answer, we'll help you find it.

    Welcome, and good luck!
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-13-2010 at 02:52 PM.

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    Clayton has a blog

    http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/

    I have found him to be very responsive to people that contact him with questions or for info. Do not hesitate to seek his information.

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    I don't carry a recorder. But if I were in your situation I would start. Here is some info on NC, we are a one party consent state.

    http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-gui...-recording-law

    Also, did you ask if you were being detained? Just curious. Some folks feel that any conversation started by a LEO is a detention. But realistically, some of them are just mutual conversations that folks do not know they can walk away from. A good series of questions would be....

    Am I being detained? (If yes then you have your answer, if no then ask) Am I free to go? (If yes, you can leave. If no you have a confused LEO on your hands.)

    And since case law in NC states that simply carrying a firearm is no offense, State v Huntley, it could be argued that simply carrying a firearm legally is not grounds for a Terry Stop. Though the lower threshold for RAS is problematic for the OC'er.

    As always IANAL, YMMV, blah blah.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I think we can ALL stand to review the timeless wisdom of Chris Rock, with regards to how to deal with police interactions:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mt...eature=related

    Sure this is comedy, and he's trying to be funny, but a LOT of what he says is SPOT ON for us in the OC world.

    Especially his advice to "****"...

  18. #18
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    I thnk it was the abortion clinic thing that got you detained, not the "African American" thing. I have a lot of black friends who OC on a daily basis. I suspect if the cops saw a white guy or any other color guy OCing at an abortion clinic protest they would stop and ask questions.

    I suspect they were reluctant to do their job because they know it would get twisted into a race thing and not a OC thing. We all know it's always because of race when any non-white gets detained for any reason, don't we?

    I understand your defense was you were just "in the area" getting your car worked on, but in your video you say, several times, "Are WE protesting, or are WE peaceably assembling" which indicates you were a participant of whatever was going on there.
    Last edited by Anthony_I_Am; 07-14-2010 at 04:15 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_I_Am View Post
    I thnk it was the abortion clinic thing that got you detained, not the "African American" thing. I have a lot of black friends who OC on a daily basis. I suspect if the cops saw a white guy or any other color guy OCing at an abortion clinic protest they would stop and ask questions.

    I suspect they were reluctant to do their job because they know it would get twisted into a race thing and not a OC thing. We all know it's always because of race when any non-white gets detained for any reason, don't we?

    I understand your defense was you were just "in the area" getting your car worked on, but in your video you say, several times, "Are WE protesting, or are WE peaceably assembling" which indicates you were a participant of whatever was going on there.
    hmmm...never said I was in the are getting my car worked on (that was a separate incident) so you "understand" wrong. Never said those charges had anything to do with race. I wasn't near any protest when I was at Chic-Fil-A with my daughter and was detained (and I did ask if I was being detained; officer said yes). When I asked what laws I was being investigated for breaking he said "any laws". I guess that means I was suspected of breaking all laws since I was being investigated for "any" law.

    Wasn't near a protest when I was detained on my way into Walmart. Another incident where there was no call to the police; they just happened to see me.

    I have been OC'ing for 16 mths and detained on three separate occasions not to mention the countless comments/questions I get from employees/managers.

    Then I was refereed to as a "African American" by a former LEO on this very forum.

    GPD is being sued by dozens of minority officers for discrimination.

    I think this is a fair discussion.

    By the way, yelling "turn around" as you reach for your gun is not "asking some questions". Trumped up charges and a search warrant aren't "asking questions". $20,000 bond on three misdemeanors isn't "asking questions". Executing the warrant with half a dozen officers in swat gear isn't "asking questions".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFreeman View Post
    Might I ask how you dress when you OC?

    I usually make it a point to dress a bit more "business casual" whenever I OC due to my age (younger people are inherently prone to violence I guess).
    Varies. I used to "dress nice" when I first started. Now I don't make any effort; just whatever I happen to have on.

    One of the occasions I was detained I did have on a nice sweater with a nice pair of jeans; pretty clean cut that day

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    Thanks for all of the good information from everyone who posted links/references. I will definitely start going through some of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jp49911 View Post
    hmmm...never said I was in the are getting my car worked on (that was a separate incident) so you "understand" wrong. Never said those charges had anything to do with race. I wasn't near any protest when I was at Chic-Fil-A with my daughter and was detained (and I did ask if I was being detained; officer said yes). When I asked what laws I was being investigated for breaking he said "any laws". I guess that means I was suspected of breaking all laws since I was being investigated for "any" law.

    Wasn't near a protest when I was detained on my way into Walmart. Another incident where there was no call to the police; they just happened to see me.

    I have been OC'ing for 16 mths and detained on three separate occasions not to mention the countless comments/questions I get from employees/managers.

    Then I was refereed to as a "African American" by a former LEO on this very forum.

    GPD is being sued by dozens of minority officers for discrimination.

    I think this is a fair discussion.

    By the way, yelling "turn around" as you reach for your gun is not "asking some questions". Trumped up charges and a search warrant aren't "asking questions". $20,000 bond on three misdemeanors isn't "asking questions". Executing the warrant with half a dozen officers in swat gear isn't "asking questions".

    My fault. I thought the posts about the abortion clininc thing were part of this post.
    Are you offended by the United African American College Fund? Dr. King used the word African American. When did that become a bad word? Just asking, don't bash me. Some black people should sue the UNCF. Have you sent an email asking the African American Leagues Baseball museum in KS to change their name?

    Sorry you're getting jacked on an average of once every 5 months. My black, colored, afro american, (insert whatever word is politically correct this week) friends don't have that problem. Maybe it's just Greensboro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_I_Am View Post
    Sorry you're getting jacked on an average of once every 5 months. My black, colored, afro american, (insert whatever word is politically correct this week) friends don't have that problem. Maybe it's just Greensboro.
    He wasn't just detained. The thugs came to his house with swat and executed a search warrant for who knows what reason. What law did he break?

    Racism is alive and well in this Country and it is my belief that jp49911 is a victim of it, as was danbus.

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    What was the justification for a search warrant? What did they claim to be searching for? A search warrant has to be pretty precise. They can't just go in looking for "anything".

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    And since case law in NC states that simply carrying a firearm is no offense, State v Huntley, it could be argued that simply carrying a firearm legally is not grounds for a Terry Stop. Though the lower threshold for RAS is problematic for the OC'er.
    Keep in mind that several courts have ruled that legally carrying a holstered gun does not meet the criteria for a Terry Stop because the person is not armed AND dangerous which is required by Terry. Now that is not precedent in NC courts but it does still carry weight when judges are deciding things that have no precedent.

    Combine those judgments with cases here in NC like State V Kerner and you have a pretty good case for your detainment being illegal.

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