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Thread: If I came over to the USA on holiday?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    If I came over to the USA on holiday?

    Hi.

    Hypo! As an Australian citizen, If I decided to come to US for an extended holiday, Drive root 66 and such, as a clean skin and licenced long arm and licenced hand gun firearms holder with no criminal record what so ever in Aus, or any where else for that matter, even though I would not be allowed to bring any of my own firearms into the country, could I purchase a firearm (hand gun) for self protection and either CC or OC whilst I am there, and sell it when I leave? Haz.

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    Regular Member me812's Avatar
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    Depends on if you're an immigrant or non-immigrant alien. AFAIK, there's no law that forbids immigrant aliens from possessing firearms, but non-immigrant aliens can only posess one if they're in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States (See Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922, part (y)(2) for details.)

    Issues of federal law aside, If you drive Route 66, you'll be passing through many states, two of which are Illinois and California, which have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. You will certainly not be legally allowed to pack heat in either of those states, either openly or concealed, and wouldn't be even if you were a U.S. citizen. Then there's Oklahoma, which allows no carry whatsoever without a permit, although permits are shall-issue and easy to get.

    Needless to say, it will be a big pain in the backside. However, If you really, really have your heart set on doing this, and are willing to go to all the trouble, here's what I'd do: Establish residency in Arizona and get yourself an Arizona carry permit. That will allow you to legally carry in every state you'll pass through except California, Illinois and New Mexico. New Mexico won't be an issue, though, as long as you bring a belt holster, since New Mexico only requires a permit to carry concealed and then only while on foot - no permit is required in New Mexico to carry either openly or concealed while in a private vehicle. Ironically, your Arizona permit won't be needed in Arizona, we don't require carry permits and only issue them for purposes of reciprocity. California and Illinois are at the ass-ends of Route 66, so that will allow you to drive the vast majority of the road while packing.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the jails in the U.S. are filled with people who took advice from people who are not lawyers. Research carefully before you decide to try this. You might even want to want to consult a U.S. lawyer before you try it. It will cost you about $100 USD, but that's still far cheaper than a felony conviction. If you decide to consult a lawyer, I recommend this guy:

    http://www.attorneyforfreedom.com/

    He's about as pro-second Amendment as lawyers come.

  3. #3
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Remember, Haz, a large part of Route 66 (aka US 66) has been transformed into I-40. Not much of it passes through Texas.

    You cannot carry concealed in Texas without a permit from Texas or a state of reciprocity. You cannot carry open at all. You can, however, carry in your vehicle without permission from the state as long as it is concealed.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    most of the old US66 is still there, it is just abandoned and unmaintained.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    I sinserly apologise for the delay in responding. Thank you all for your advice I apreciate it, me812, rodbender , and;

    "07-13-2010 10:11 AMsimmonsjoe
    most of the old US66 is still there, it is just abandoned and unmaintained."
    .

    Lol, So are most of our country and rural roads Australia wide. Even many of our state and federal highways have been abandoned. Haz.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    There are a few obstacles you would need to overcome to buy a firearm from a FFL dealer.

    First- As a non resident alien you would have to have obtain a hunting license. I know you aren't hunting but the license grants you an exception to purchase.
    Second- you would have to be in country for at least 90 days prior to purchase.
    Third- To purchase a handgun you would have to present a state issued ID for the locality in which you want to purchase, which means you must establish a domicile there.

    In short the law says no guns for tourists. The only work around I can see is building your own firearm or buying a black powder revolver and using as is or even converting one to a cartridge gun, though you would still need a hunting license to possess the ammunition and firearm.

    As for carrying, I think it may be possible to get a Utah permit, I haven't seen anything on their website that would disqualify you on grounds of being a non citizen. You would have to find a Utah CCW instructor to get certified which may be difficult in Australia.

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    Which law says "no guns for tourists"? I am ignorant on this subject and would appreciate a citation. Thanks.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Which law says "no guns for tourists"? I am ignorant on this subject and would appreciate a citation. Thanks.
    He said; "In short the law says no guns for tourists." The term "in short" normally means he is paraphrasing, not quoting. Hello!!! The lights are on, is anybody home?

    Must be here 90 days. Not many tourists are going to stay 90 days.

    Hunting license. Not many tourists come here to hunt.

    Establish residency. How many tourists are going to establish residency?

    Geez, Louise, come on.

    OK, I know, you're moving on because I hurt your feelings, didn't I.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    For form sake.
    USC Title 18 Section 922 (g)5 and (y)2. The 90 days proof of residency is demanded on a 4473. No guns for tourists was my conclusion no citation needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    He said; "In short the law says no guns for tourists." The term "in short" normally means he is paraphrasing, not quoting. Hello!!! The lights are on, is anybody home?

    Must be here 90 days. Not many tourists are going to stay 90 days.

    Hunting license. Not many tourists come here to hunt.

    Establish residency. How many tourists are going to establish residency?

    Geez, Louise, come on.

    OK, I know, you're moving on because I hurt your feelings, didn't I.
    Ease up, friend, a stranger is politely asking for assistance on unfamiliar laws in a strange and confusing country. Let's be polite and helpful in response, eh?

  11. #11
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Rules require a citation!

    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    He said; "In short the law says no guns for tourists." The term "in short" normally means he is paraphrasing, not quoting. Hello!!! The lights are on, is anybody home?

    Must be here 90 days. Not many tourists are going to stay 90 days.

    Hunting license. Not many tourists come here to hunt.

    Establish residency. How many tourists are going to establish residency?

    Geez, Louise, come on.

    OK, I know, you're moving on because I hurt your feelings, didn't I.
    He is asking for a citation, and he is right to do so because of the forum rules. Ridiculing him for doing so is inappropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longwatch View Post
    For form sake.
    USC Title 18 Section 922 (g)5 and (y)2. The 90 days proof of residency is demanded on a 4473. No guns for tourists was my conclusion no citation needed.
    A 4473 is not the only way a tourist might procure a gun. A loaner is perfectly legal. Buying one would not be, because buying from a licensee requires 90 days residency, and non-licensees cannot legally sell to someone who isn't a resident of their own state (even if they're not a resident of any U.S. state).

  13. #13
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PavePusher View Post
    Ease up, friend, a stranger is politely asking for assistance on unfamiliar laws in a strange and confusing country. Let's be polite and helpful in response, eh?
    I was replying to eye95's request for a citation on the "tourist" statement,not Haz.

  14. #14
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    He is asking for a citation, and he is right to do so because of the forum rules. Ridiculing him for doing so is inappropriate.
    He was asking for a citation on the "no guns for tourists" statement, and anybody, and I mean anybody, should have known that longwatch was paraphrasing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longwatch View Post
    For form sake.
    USC Title 18 Section 922 (g)5 and (y)2. The 90 days proof of residency is demanded on a 4473. No guns for tourists was my conclusion no citation needed.
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PavePusher View Post
    Ease up, friend, a stranger is politely asking for assistance on unfamiliar laws in a strange and confusing country. Let's be polite and helpful in response, eh?
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    He is asking for a citation, and he is right to do so because of the forum rules. Ridiculing him for doing so is inappropriate.

    At least he didn't call him an "A-s-s-h-a-t". Beside's he's only exercising his 1st Amendment right, wasn't that the reason you used?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    A 4473 is not the only way a tourist might procure a gun. A loaner is perfectly legal. Buying one would not be, because buying from a licensee requires 90 days residency, and non-licensees cannot legally sell to someone who isn't a resident of their own state (even if they're not a resident of any U.S. state).
    A loaner is not perfectly legal as a general statement. Outside of very specific conditions, there is no such thing as a "loaner" gun and you are actually "transferring" a firearm when you let someone "borrow" it.

    Self defense is not a "sporting purpose". A tourist may not "borrow" a firearm for self defense. A firearm is only a "loaner" if it is loaned temporarily for a specific sporting purpose such as hunting or target practice. That means that you may not just drive around in your rental car with a firearm in the trunk with the hopes of bluffing that you are on your way hunting or target shooting. Borrowing normally entails at a range (indoor or outdoor) or at the point of hunting. Be prepared to fight a citation in court if you are just driving around with a firearm in the trunk or if you are open carrying. An exception is also made for those with a permit to carry. There are ways which an alien can get a permit. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC922

    If you come to my house and get a firearm to "borrow", I am actually transferring that firearm to you with the intention that you will transfer it back to me. Ask David Olofson what the ATF calls someone "borrowing" a gun....

    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I--CRIMES

    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS


    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful--

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,
    sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
    (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
    a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
    business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
    this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation,
    or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm
    to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a
    person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the
    laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
    firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
    purposes;
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 07-18-2010 at 11:13 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Hey, Haz, if you come over, then one thing you should check out are a very few ranges that will allow you to rent and shoot a fully-automatic weapon. Ever fire a Thompson, a BAR, an M-16?

    Let the enemy keep his Jihad. Here in America, we have the remedy: "Yee-hahd" (YEEE-HAW!)

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