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Thread: Help with Virignia Firearm 'Quick Reference' please?

  1. #1
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Exclamation Help with Virginia Firearm 'Quick Reference' please?

    http://dieselwarrior.com/firearm/virginia-firearms.pdf

    This is a work in process, and I am not educated enough to do this alone.

    I was stopped while carrying open during a hike on a public road, and want to have something to present to LEO in lieu of any statement, or that is the intent anyway.

    This is intended to be a reference for the ignorant civilian as much as any LEO.

    I would like to back up any facts with references to va code numbers whenever possible.

    Anyone up to helping a stupid n00b?

    Thanks,
    Andrew
    Last edited by ElevenBravo; 07-13-2010 at 10:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    http://dieselwarrior.com/firearm/virginia-firearms.pdf
    Anyone up to helping a stupid n00b?

    Thanks,
    Andrew
    VCDL has a couple of pocket-sized handouts that cover most of the laws on CCW. Either contact the gun show coordinator in your area or go to a gun show to get one or a couple. OCDO member ED (that's his handle - PM him for the info on getting stuff from him) has business card-sized info on OC. Both are probably in the process of printing updated versions with the 7/1/10 changes.

    I'd suggest you browse the Virginia sub-forum to get "caught up" with where the state of the art is on dealing with LEO who seem to be unaware of the laws. We (the collective "us") have accomplished an awful lot over the years in reducing the odds of meeting a completely ignorant JBT. Yes, you still might meet a JBT but the odds of him/her being ignorant of the law are less than they used to be.

    There are ignorant noobs, but there are no stupid noobs if they are asking questions. Ignorance, among other conditions, is cured fairly easily.

    stay safe.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Q) I see you are carrying a firearm in the open, why are you doing this?
    A) The Commonwealth of Virginia and the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution both guarantee that the people have a right to keep and BEAR arms, and I am just exercising that right, the same way YOU are exercising your 1st Amendment rights of free speech...

    VA Constitution:
    Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power.
    That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.


    US Constitution:
    Bill of Rights, 2nd Amendment:
    A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


    Q) What are you, some kind of “gun nut”?
    A) No, I'm just a citizen, who is concerned and responsible for my own safety and protection. The US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no duty or legal obligation to provide personal protection for individuals, so I'm just doing my duty as a citizen.


    Q) What gives you the right to carry a gun around like this?
    A) The US and VA constitutions, see "Answer 1" above. Self defense is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT, the same as free speech, the right to practice whatever religion I want, the right to vote, or the right to be secure against unwarranted search and seizure.


    Q) I am an LEO and I demand to see your VADL or CHP.
    A) If I am walking, I am not driving and am not required to show my VADL. If I am open carrying and not concealed carrying, I am not required to show my CHP.


    Q) I am an LEO and want to know what you are doing and where you are going carrying a weapon.
    A) Under the 5th Amendment to the United States Constitution, I am not required to make any statement as it provides me protection against abuse of government authority in a legal procedure.


    Q) I am an LEO and I demand you co-operate with my questions or you can be charged with obstruction of justice.
    A) The Court of Appeals of Virginia has held that "obstruction of justice does not occur when a person fails to cooperate fully with an officer or when the person’s conduct merely renders the officer’s task more difficult but does not impede or prevent the officer from performing that task." (§ 18.2-460(A))


    Q) This is City Property, you cant carry here.
    A) According to Virginia Code § 15.2-915 I am only prohibited from carry in state or federal outlined areas, localities cannot make laws forbidding the carry of a firearm. The state of VA has established Preemption, and cities are actually prohibited by State law from making up their own laws restricting firearms ownership, transport, or possession.


    Just a few of my own modifications. You're on the right track, but you need to temper the language. Some of your answers come across as a little abrasive and smart-a$$. Quote actual statutes. Quote the Constitution. Quote court rulings. But be careful about coming across as snide or snarky, and don't go so heavy on the "because I can" attitude, because it can sound rude and childish. Justify anything you say with quotes from the law or from court rulings. That makes it sound more official, and gives your position the weight of authority, rather than just sounding like some pouty "gun nut"...

    Good luck!

  4. #4
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You're on the right track, but you need to temper the language. Some of your answers come across as a little abrasive and smart-a$$. Quote actual statutes. Quote the Constitution. Quote court rulings. But be careful about coming across as snide or snarky, and don't go so heavy on the "because I can" attitude, because it can sound rude and childish. Justify anything you say with quotes from the law or from court rulings. That makes it sound more official, and gives your position the weight of authority, rather than just sounding like some pouty "gun nut"...

    Good luck!
    ElevenBravo - I have to agree with Dreamer here. Some of the responses come across with a bit of a 'tude. You said that you "want to have something to present to LEO in lieu of any statement" Stepping back in time to when I wore a badge - If I stopped and asked to speak to you about your firearm or whatever and you simply handed me that piece of paper, I really would think that you were some kind of nut. I don't mean that to be rude, so please don't take it that way. I just mean that if you know what your rights are, you can have a conversation with a LEO like 2 reasonable adults should have, without handing them a note signed by Epstein's mother.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I've recently given this idea some thought as well, and I concluded that if a LEO is engaging me for any reason related to a firearm, he or she is not likely to divert sufficient attention to read a piece of paper that I have handed them while directly in my presence. I don't think that would be a very smart thing for them to do.

    Of course, the age-old recommended first question that is often bantered about is "Am I free to leave?" and if the answer is not "no", then leave.

    TFred

  6. #6
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    What you want is the VCDL Carry Card available for download at:

    http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/VCDL_Carry_Card.pdf

    If you like the card (and you will), don't forget to join VCDL!


    John


    Quote Originally Posted by ElevenBravo View Post
    http://dieselwarrior.com/firearm/virginia-firearms.pdf

    This is a work in process, and I am not educated enough to do this alone.

    I was stopped while carrying open during a hike on a public road, and want to have something to present to LEO in lieu of any statement, or that is the intent anyway.

    This is intended to be a reference for the ignorant civilian as much as any LEO.

    I would like to back up any facts with references to va code numbers whenever possible.

    Anyone up to helping a stupid n00b?

    Thanks,
    Andrew

  7. #7
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    ElevenBravo - I have to agree with Dreamer here. Some of the responses come across with a bit of a 'tude. You said that you "want to have something to present to LEO in lieu of any statement" Stepping back in time to when I wore a badge - If I stopped and asked to speak to you about your firearm or whatever and you simply handed me that piece of paper, I really would think that you were some kind of nut. I don't mean that to be rude, so please don't take it that way. I just mean that if you know what your rights are, you can have a conversation with a LEO like 2 reasonable adults should have, without handing them a note signed by Epstein's mother.
    As a former LEO, I agree with Pro-Shooter. I think it comes across very rude.

    Why not just arm yourself with knowledge of the law and know what your options are in case of a LEO encounter? Speak to him as a PERSON with sincerity and respect and you will most likely receive the same in return.

  8. #8
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Dreamer, many thanks for your work, your on target.

    As to being rude, I guess I was typing what I was feeling, and it came across.

    Great information and tips presented by all, thank you for your contribution and look
    forward to more input!

    Andrew

  9. #9
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Current revision of PDF reflects dreamer's modifications, a most excellent work!

    I am looking to expand on this more, so if there are some additions, Id love to see them!

    I have moved the intent of the project to include EDUCATING THE GUN OWNER, as much as education the observing citizen and demonstrating to the LEO you are aware of your rights.

    The input from you all has been very constructive, and I am very thankful.

    Andrew

  10. #10
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    I understand I really need this book, I will still need some guidance after I have read the book, I am sure. I simply wanted to bring to attention that I am aware of the book, and I am needing to read it.

    Andrew

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I agree with ODA 226 and ProShooter.

    It's better to "arm yourself" with knowledge, and engage an LEO with rational, polite (but VERY limited) conversation than to try to hand him some flyer. Doing that is DEFINITELY going to put you in the "nut case" category with most LEOs...

    And get REAL familiar with the "Am I being detained" drill. Knowing your 1A, 2A, 4A and 5A rights is a CRITICAL skill set if you're going to carry...

    Be polite.

    Be knowledgeable.

    Be willing and able to **** and walk away...

    Remember, you have the RIGHT to remain silent. And ANYTHING you say WILL be used against you.

    You cannot talk your way out of a situation with an LEO who thinks you are wrong. That, dear friends, is what the courts are for...

    Handing out flyers to citizens is usually a good thing--it educates them, it shows that you've done your research, and it lends credence and authority to your claims because it's printed, and people have been programmed to put more credence in printed material than the spoken word.

    But for those EXACT same reasons, (education, research, authority), handing a flyer to a cop is, in many instances (expecially if the cop is "anti") just going to make matters worse. Cops hate NOTHING more than a citizen who thinks he knows the law...

    The ONLY piece of paper that will shut down an out-of-line cop is your business card--if you happen to be a bar-certified lawyer...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-13-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Post Don't Talk to the Police.

    being able to have a regular conversation is irrelevant.

    Don't talk with the Police, part 1

    Don't talk with the Police, part 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post

    Remember, you have the RIGHT to remain silent. And ANYTHING you say WILL be used against you.

    You cannot talk your way out of a situation with an LEO who thinks you are wrong. That, dear friends, is what the courts are for...
    I can't stress this enough. You will never win an argument during an encounter with a LEO. Just shut up and if you believe your rights were violated, file suit.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    being able to have a regular conversation is irrelevant.

    Don't talk with the Police, part 1

    Don't talk with the Police, part 2
    Or both parts right here:

  15. #15
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    It's better to "arm yourself" with knowledge, and engage an LEO with rational, polite (but VERY limited) conversation than to try to hand him some flyer.
    Okay, you are right. When I drempt up the idea, it sounded good. Now, I think it is better used for the CITIZEN to reference for his own encounter!!

    Dont hand the officer anything, instead reference what your actions and words should/shouldnt be.

    That sounds a LOT more logical. (and not stupid)

    Andrew

  16. #16
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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  17. #17
    Regular Member ElevenBravo's Avatar
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    Help with 'Know Your Rights' please?

    http://dieselwarrior.com/firearm/knowyourrights.pdf

    I present for your criticism and expansion of knowledge a document which I hope would serve useful for those that need a reference to review periodically (people such as myself).

    Thanks,
    Andrew

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