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Thread: Would you fear for your life?

  1. #1
    Regular Member erb's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Would you fear for your life?

    When a LEO goes ape-**** on you like this:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10194...ghborhoods.xml

    David Palmer said he was pulled over in the 1000 block of East Carson Street early that morning. When Trooper Nassan approached the driver's side, Mr. Palmer said he told the officer he had a permit to carry a concealed firearm and a gun in his pocket.

    "Nassan, without reason and without provocation, violently struck plaintiff in the head, neck and face," the lawsuit said.

    The complaint goes on to say Trooper Nassan and Sgt. Donnelly, as well as Pittsburgh Officer Sheila Ladner then forced Mr. Palmer to the ground, repeatedly striking him and then shooting him with a Taser in his chest.



    Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10194...#ixzz0teA0uk4I

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erb View Post
    When a LEO goes ape-**** on you like this:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10194...ghborhoods.xml
    Call me what you will, but I do not see that as an attack with lethal intent. Nor would I fear that in spite of the lack of intent they would kill me, or even do serious bodily harm.

    Taking as a given that there is less than the whole story reported, it sounds like these were just a couple of JBTs with no self control, who were out to express their personal displeasure on meeting an armed citizen.

    If (big IF) the incident went down basicaly as reported, then there ought to be significant compensation for the victim and significant consequences for both the individual assailants and the departments that they used to work for (HINT!). But I am a realist and do not expect much of what I would consider minimal justice will come about.

    stay safe.

  3. #3
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Sounds like Officer Nassan, among others, may be in dire need of an attitude adjustment. Maybe general population would do the trick.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    The "courtesy" notification sure worked out well for THAT guy, huh?

  5. #5
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    The cop was just doing his job when he beat the man. He was doing his job in April 2009 when Nicholas Haniotakis was shot and earlier when Michael Ellerbe was shot and the lawsuit settled for $12.5 million. Cop bashing is not nice.
    Last edited by kwikrnu; 07-14-2010 at 09:59 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Yes

    wow their records are insane. These cops belong in jail, if not death row.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    "I am a lawman. A lawman is a killer of men." -- Lawman
    What a hateful thing to quote without denouncing it.

    BTW, I denounce that statement as overbroad LEO-bashing.

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    Internet Movie data Base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bannock Marshal Jared Maddox
    I'm a lawman. Do you know what a lawman is, Crowe? He's a killer of men. That's what the job calls for. There are new ways to put it, but it reads the same. That's the difference between us, and it's all the difference I need.
    A quotation needs a better citation.

  9. #9
    Regular Member SaintJacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What a hateful thing to quote without denouncing it.

    BTW, I denounce that statement as overbroad LEO-bashing.
    Not at all. At its core all law is simply the threat of lethal force. Either do "x" or don't do "y" or the police will intervene with force. All government is the organized use of brutality. Necessary brutality, perhaps, but brutality none the less. That's why we need as little of it as possible.

    These "officers" should be rotting in jail.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJacque View Post
    Not at all. At its core all law is simply the threat of lethal force. Either do "x" or don't do "y" or the police will intervene with force. All government is the organized use of brutality. Necessary brutality, perhaps, but brutality none the less. That's why we need as little of it as possible.

    These "officers" should be rotting in jail.
    The quote I denounced said, in essence, that lawmen (unqualified) = killer. I denounce it again and any support given to it. Saying it or supporting it is despicable.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Officer Nassan, as is TOO OFTEN the case in these situations, is no stranger to "overzealous escalation"...

    On the evening of 24 December, 2002, Officer Nassan was pursuing a stolen SUV, when it veered into a yard and the driver bailed. The driver was 12-year-old Michael Ellerbe, who tried to flee, climbing a fence.

    In an attempt to "subdue" this dangerously unarmed pre-teen joy-riding punk, Officer Nassan shot Michael Ellerbe in the back, killing him.

    His actions resulted in a Federal Civil Rights case, and the ensuing settlement to Michael Ellerbe's family cost the State of PA (well, actually, the TAXPAYERS of PA) $28 million (but the family only received $12.8 million in a settlement) in 2008.

    Interestingly enough, the PASP's internal probe conducted in the 3 months immediately following the shooting concluded that Nassan's shooting was entirely justified, and so he remains on the force...

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...shooting_N.htm

    And YET ANOTHER Federal Civil Rights suit was recently ruled against Nassan (fall 2009) in an incident where he roughed up and broke the ankle of a bar patron in Pittsburgh's South Side in 2008. This time, his lawyers were smart enough to have the settlement details made "confidential" so the media and the fine people of PA may never know how much that one cost...

    http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...60/detail.html

    Nassan also is currently being sued in a THIRD Federal Civil Rights suit regarding the lethal shooting of Nicholas Haniotakis, another unarmed fleeing vehicular felon who he shot in the back and killed.

    http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...2/detail.html#

    Nassan's history of violence and extreme overreaction goes back to times BEFORE he was a pilice officer. He was a sharpshooter in the military, and was "not honorably discharged" for attacking an officer, which resulted in the officer receiving facial fractures and lacerations.

    Despite this "not honorable discharge" (which technically makes it illegal under Federal law to purchase or possess a firearm!), Nassan was able to secure a clean background check, due to a cover-up at the PASP by a close personal friend, Trooper Frank Murphey, who failed to disclose this information in Nassan's background check.

    Nassan also has a history of physical altercations with superior officers in the PASP.

    Why this sociopathic thug was allowed to continue wearing a badge and possessing a firearm for so long is bound to become one of the great mysteries of Pennsylvania history...

    And apparently, Trooper Nassan is such a popular guy that the Fine People of PA have made a Facebook page, all about his exploits...

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...3880219&v=wall


    Trooper Samuel Nassan:
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    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-15-2010 at 08:57 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Incredible.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I'm starting to wonder when the Pittsburgh PD, the Philly PD, and the PA-SP started training at the Maryland State Police Academy?

    Seems like they have similar standards of performance...

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Well, apparently, when you actually have a legal gun on you, and a lawless, sociopathic, repeat-civil-rights-offender cop beats you, it's OK to report...

    But when you post about an 18-year-old viola-playing 5'6", 150# magnet school honor student who gets brutally beaten when he tries to run from 3 plainclothes officers who didn't identify themselves as police--because they thought the Mountain Dew bottle in his pocket (which BTW, was NEVER recovered and submitted as evidence) was a gun, your thread gets LOCKED...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ith-Pittsburgh

    Reporting anti-gun criminal activity of police IS NOT police-bashing.

    And it's DEFINITELY not off-topic just because the victim wasn't actually carrying either. In fact, it should be considered an even MORE relevant story on this forum, because it proves that certain members of the PPD are not only anti-gun, but are racist, and the covering-up of this sort of criminal activity by the PPD is an endemic situation. And it's DEFINITELY something that people need to know that TWO of these officers have OTHER previous civil rights violations investigations currently pending.

    Pittsburgh PD has some SERIOUS issues. I'm just trying to let Open Carry people who live there know that they need to be prepared. They need to KNOW that they should be carrying--at the minimum--a voice recorder AT ALL TIMES, and preferably to be accompanied at ALL TIMES they are OCing by an unarmed friend with a video recorder of some sort.

    Be warned Pittsburgh citizens: If you even LOOK like you're carrying, you are very likely to get a beat-down.

    And be warned members of OCDO: if you report on this sort of thing, the Moderators will lock your threads...

    We've all seen the photos of the above-mentioned victim, Jordan Miles. His photos are disturbing, sickening, and heart-breaking. And he wasn't even carrying a firearm--he was beating because the police THOUGHT he was carrying...

    But what we HAVEN'T seen is the faces behind the fists and boots that did this to him. The same three officers who, while on administrative leave during the investigation of this incident, were given AWARDS by the City in March:

    http://www.wpxi.com/news/22891042/detail.html

    And so, in the spirit of the First Amendment, and in defiance of the blatant censorship being perpetrated by the Moderators, I present, three of Pittsburgh's Finest:
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  15. #15
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Nassan would be in the UPPER 10% of the Chicago PD.
    Last edited by Deanimator; 07-16-2010 at 06:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    If this thread isn't cop bashing, what is it?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If this thread isn't cop bashing, what is it?
    Criminal bashing.

    The "day job" of a criminal should be inconsequential to the disgust that law-abiding citizens feel toward their criminal activities. And law-abiding citizens have a RIGHT and DUTY to inform their fellow citizens of lawless gangs who are conspiring in an organized manner to violate their rights, their safety, and their security.

    If the people who were doing these things were plumbers or pharmacists, would someone accuse us of plumber or pharmacist-bashing? Would discussing John Wayne Gacy be perceived as "clown bashing"? Would discussing the anti0gun policies of Phillipe Calderone be perceived as "Mexican-bashing"? (well, by someof the more irrational race-bating types, it probably WOULD...) I maintain however, those instances are not "bashing". The same "yardstick" should apply here...

    What makes these instances of particular interest to this forum, and something that should be researched in-depth is that:

    1) LEOs are SWORN to uphold the law. When they act in a manner that contradicts their very job requirements, their badge becomes invalid, and they are just another criminal committing murder or assault, or perjury. The MINUTE they "cross the line", they are NO LONGER a "cop", and therefore calling out and researching their behavior is NOT "cop-bashing",

    2) When specific LEO's have a KNOWN track record of disregard (and even disdain) for the law and FUNDAMENTAL human rights, people who live in their jurisdictions have a RIGHT to know, so that they can prepare for possible interactions with such lawless, color-of-law wielding sociopathic impersonators. By informing people of the CAREER-LONG trends of illegal behavior of such people, we help prepare our OC brothers and sisters for possible harassment, abuse, or brutality. Maybe these stories will prompt OCers in the Pittsburgh area to carry voice recorders and video cameras more frequently, and as actively-engaged citizens, they can perform THEIR duty of reining in corrupt government and purging the LE community of these rare "bad apples" through civil and criminal prosecutions, backed up by voice and video recorded evidence,

    3) Since OCers are more likely than non-carrying citizens (or even CCers) to draw the attention of LEOs, and perhaps have a slightly higher chance of LEO interactions than an average citizen (because of their OCing), it is our DUTY to be aware of any threat to our safety. If there is an increase of Bloods and Crips activity in a specific city, we would report that. If there was a spike in carjackings, we'd want to know. If there was a serial rapist on the loose in a given city, then THAT would be on-topic for ALL people who carried for self-defense, so that we could prepare ourselves, educate our families, and know that we needed to be, perhaps, a little more "aware" of our surroundings than usual.

    If ANY specific demographic is seeing a spike in illegal activities, brutal assaults, or disproportionate use of force against the public, then that should be something that ALL people who carry should want to know about, so that we can conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner.

    If that means elevated situational awareness, then good. If it means going out and buying a voice recorder, then so much the better. If you think that means you need to install a video surveillance system in your vehicle, or secure a good lawyer on retainer, then knock yourself out.

    But to say that this topic is somehow "cop bashing" is just tippy-toeing a little too close to "political correctness" for me, and I find such accusations to be offensive, counterproductive to the safety of my fellow OCers, AND a direct infringement on another right that I cherish JUST AS MUCH as my 2A rights--and that is the Right to Free Speech and Press.

    If the moderators want to toss me off this forum for collating news reports and condensing the lawless histories of these "police impersonators" into an easy-to-read format, so that my fellow OCers in the Pittsburg area can get the "big picture" more easily, then so be it.

    I would hope, however, that they would not view the Bill of Rights as some sort of "Chinese Menu" where they can pick and choose only the rights they are most comfortable with...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-16-2010 at 08:10 PM.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    The only Persons I hav attacked are persons who have proven, documented track records of lawless, illegal, and conspiratorial behavior with regards to assault, homicide, and civil rights violations.

    The fact that they are LEOs is really inconsequential to the discussion, except for the fact that their lawlessness is EVEN MORE egregious in the light of their supposed job requirements.

    I'm NOT bashing PA cops in general, or as a group. I'm singling out a few VERY bad apples, an the people up their chain of command who condone, obfuscate, and cover up such behavior.

    Just because people are afraid of being accused of "cop bashing" shouldn't be grounds to censor PUBLIC INFORMATION such as news stories, court reports, and other publicly-availabel information that is pertinent to establishing a pattern of criminal behavior in a specific instance.

    If these particular "officers" were shining examples of LE perfection, I would not be digging through their closets. But when you can EASILY see the skeletal fingers piled up on their front porches, the game has taken an ENTIRELY different nature...

    If publishing links to the previous news stories of abusive LEOs is "cop bashing" then color me guilty.

    Personally, I think our brothers and sisters in Pittsburgh and Allegheny County would WANT to know that there are a few REALLY bad apples over there, and that their chain of command has a LONG history of colluding and conspiring to cover up their misdeed.

    OC is SERIOUS business. It can provoke some irrational and unpredictable reactions from some citizens and occasionally some LEOs.

    When you ad to that mix a systemic disdain for civil rights, and a deeply-engrained tendency toward perjury, collusion and conspiracy to cover up such acts, it creates a VERY risky situation for lawful OC.

    I think we owe our fellow OCers in Western PA an accurate and comprehensive account of that information, so that they can make INFORMED decisions as to how they wish to conduct themselves, to ensure their own safety.

    I'm not personally attacking people because they wear badges.

    I'm personally attacking individuals because they have PROVEN records of acting in a lawless, sociopathic, unstable, and dangerous manner. If they were plumbers, or auto mechanics, or hairdressers, and had similar records of serial abuse of the civil rights of citizens, I'd be calling them out just as vociferously...

    The fact that they are LEOs just means that OCers need to be EXTRA CAREFUL, because, apparently in certain parts of PA, you just NEVER know when an "interaction" might become a full-fledged, brutal, and potentially deadly assault on their civil rights. And to add insult to injury, they may well expect the courts to join in supporting such lawless, criminal activities, because at least in criminal cases, that seems to be how it goes in PA. (Civil suits seem to be a little more "justice-minded" though...)

    When I find incidents like this anywhere, I will continue to warn other OCers of their potential threat. And I will continue to post photographs of the transgressors, because I think we ALL need to be able to put a face behind the fists and the boots.

    I'd think that the people of PA would WANT to know this, for their own safety...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-16-2010 at 08:46 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  20. #20
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Anyone can quote a rule. Show me where/how he broke it.

    ETA: And I don't think he can be accused of general bashing of groups of "PA troopers who have multiple, well documented records of assault". Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
    Last edited by Brimstone Baritone; 07-16-2010 at 10:37 PM.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdonalk View Post
    Anyone can quote a rule. Show me where/how he broke it.

    ETA: And I don't think he can be accused of general bashing of groups of "PA troopers who have multiple, well documented records of assault". Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
    My comment was not originally directed at any one poster. I agree that it is good to know how to respond to the bad apple; however, the difference between a discussion and a bashing is only a matter of degree, tone and words selected.

    Reread some of the verbiage used - I think it crosses the line.

    "The cop did his job when he beat the man.....sarcasm but inflammatory."

    "A lawman is a killer of men."

    "All government is the organized use of brutality."

    If we cannot learn to distinguish between reporting an event and slanting it, we are no better than the mainstream media to this regard.

    Perhaps more important is the decision/intent to ignore the private property rules in favor of one's own selection of what is appropriate here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    [I]"The cop did his job when he beat the man."
    Now I am confused. It's illegal to say anything bad about cops or defend them?

  23. #23
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    I make the call as to which threads to lock and which threads to delete and which threads to leave alone based upon the totality of the comments in the thread, the direction the thread is going, etc.

    I am currently leaving this thread open because it DOES relate to open carry and the event DID occur and our rules do allow discussing specific acts of misconduct by officers against gun owners.

    You may disagree with individual decisions I make regarding threads but I hardly think the balance I try to strike could be called "blatant censorship".


    John

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    And be warned members of OCDO: if you report on this sort of thing, the Moderators will lock your threads...

    ...

    And so, in the spirit of the First Amendment, and in defiance of the blatant censorship being perpetrated by the Moderators, I present, three of Pittsburgh's Finest:

  24. #24
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    I should note that should this thread go off topic or become general LEO bashing (as opposed to discussing this specific act of misconduct), then I, of course, retain the option to close it as well.

    I do not want people to be afraid of posting about bad police encounters while carrying. That is EXACTLY what we are about. However, there is always someone who wants to take it off in the direction of general police corruption. And while that is an important topic, it is outside the scope of what we want to address.

    I think anyone here can see the difference between:

    "Look at how these officers treated a carrier who notified!"
    vs.

    "I am a lawman and I kill people"
    See? Thanks!


    John

    Quote Originally Posted by administrator View Post
    I make the call as to which threads to lock and which threads to delete and which threads to leave alone based upon the totality of the comments in the thread, the direction the thread is going, etc.

    I am currently leaving this thread open because it DOES relate to open carry and the event DID occur and our rules do allow discussing specific acts of misconduct by officers against gun owners.

    You may disagree with individual decisions I make regarding threads but I hardly think the balance I try to strike could be called "blatant censorship".


    John

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    An interesting sidenote: The PPD wears a specially-patterned band on their hat, called a "Sillitoe Tartan". This band is common in the UK, but the ONLY other police agencies in the US that wear this band are the Chicago Police, and Cook County Sheriffs dept.

    I don't mean nothin' by that... I'm just sayin'...

    But you know how the old saying goes: Birds of a feather...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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