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Thread: URGENT: Comment and Vote in This Poll (VIDEO LINK)

  1. #1
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    URGENT: Comment and Vote in This Poll (VIDEO LINK)

    Philip mopped the floor with Jack the bartender today on NBC 12. Now, we need to hit the poll and comment on the site.

    Let's roll guys!

    http://www.nbc12.com/Global/story.asp?S=12807722

    John

  2. #2
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    I hit the poll. 89% for C/C in restaurants serving alcohol - 11% against.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Hit it as soon as I got back!

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    90% yes
    10% no

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
    90% yes
    10% no
    I guess that isn't working out too well for them. 12 is anti gun although they don't advertise it anymore.
    They sponsored a gun buyback years ago and I called all their advertisers. They haven't done one since that I know of.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I guess that isn't working out too well for them. 12 is anti gun although they don't advertise it anymore.
    They sponsored a gun buyback years ago and I called all their advertisers. They haven't done one since that I know of.
    86-14 when I voted. I think this poll really backfired on them.
    I think the TV station's anti-gun bias was evident when the moderator started with the bartender's opinions and seemed to favor him throughout the "debate". I didn't bother checking how much time was allotted for each response, but PVC did an amazing job with the little time he was allotted.

    Mr. Van Cleave continues to be a wonderful spokesman for VCDL and supporter for all Americans' Second Amendment rights. Its too bad there aren't more like him. I wish I was half as articulate as Mr. Van Cleave.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  7. #7
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Get the gun, not the permit

    Jack: Mr. Van Cleave, I understand you're probably quite a few years older than me and don't go to late night bars as much and why you want to carry guns during the day, but you're not the one serving 500 people on a Friday night. It's a very dangerous situation.

    Philip: Then you should get a permit to carry.

    IMHO getting a handgun would be much more effective than getting a piece of paper that grants you a priveledge.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  8. #8
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Why would Open Carriers care?

    Why is a story about concealed handgun permit priveldges so important to an open carry website that it gets a sticky?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Why is a story about concealed handgun permit priveldges so important to an open carry website that it gets a sticky?
    1. Because the moderators, who are the owners of this web site, wanted to.

    2. Because PVC is the president of VCDL, a well-respected organization that fights for the rights of all legal gun carriers and owners. "All" is the super set of Open Carriers.

    TFred

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Jack: Mr. Van Cleave, I understand you're probably quite a few years older than me and don't go to late night bars as much and why you want to carry guns during the day, but you're not the one serving 500 people on a Friday night. It's a very dangerous situation.

    Philip: Then you should get a permit to carry.

    IMHO getting a handgun would be much more effective than getting a piece of paper that grants you a priveledge.
    Actually, while I fully support Mr. Bartender's right to carry, should he be qualified and see fit to do so (there is much question, due to admitted drug use, etc.), I suspect that he may be one of those cases where it works out that being an anti-gun advocate is probably better for us all.

    His irrational fear of guns and associated anti-gun views reflect on his personality and demeanor, up to and including that he probably considers himself unable to responsibly and safely carry a gun, and other than the fact that he is clearly transferring his own problems onto his view of society as a whole, I'm pretty sure we're all better off that he personally chooses to never own a gun.

    TFred

  11. #11
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    Jack's comments on jack Goes Forth

    http://jackgoesforth.blogspot.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack. EXCERPTS
    There were also gun fanatics outside of the studio filming me, as they apparently have been doing lately without my knowledge. This includes secretly filming me behind the bar while I was working. Creepy, I know.

    - While there clearly wasn't enough time for either Mr. Van Cleave or myself to really get our points across, it was an informing segment for the general populace. Van Cleave made all of the points that the gun nuts usually make and I laughed my way through the whole thing because of how ridiculous these people and this law are. My friends and most sane people will say I won, his gun nut buddies will say the opposite. There was not a winner though....

    My point will only be proven when an innocent restaurant bystander dies either inadvertently or maliciously at the hands of a concealed weapons permit holder. It's sad, but that's just the way the cookie will crumble.
    Posted by Jack Goes Forth Labels: idiots bantering, Life
    He uses the same rhetorical cant as is seen here, "bantering" dismissively.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 07-15-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Actually, while I fully support Mr. Bartender's right to carry, should he be qualified and see fit to do so (there is much question, due to admitted drug use, etc.), I suspect that he may be one of those cases where it works out that being an anti-gun advocate is probably better for us all.

    His irrational fear of guns and associated anti-gun views reflect on his personality and demeanor, up to and including that he probably considers himself unable to responsibly and safely carry a gun, and other than the fact that he is clearly transferring his own problems onto his view of society as a whole, I'm pretty sure we're all better off that he personally chooses to never own a gun.

    TFred
    +1

    Even though a bartender might be able to carry concealed (without a CHP) on the property, if JACK decided to carry, he would be in violation of the law as a habitual drug user. As noted above, we are better off that he doesn't carry. He's not up to the task mentally. He would most certainly be a detriment to society. He is obviously "projecting" as many anti's are prone to do.

    His therapist isn't doing the trick, either. He needs to "up the dosage" or resort to stronger meds. A Thorazine drip may be more appropriate under the circumstances.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  13. #13
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    P4P / Gun RIGHTS Rift

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    1. Because the moderators, who are the owners of this web site, wanted to.

    2. Because PVC is the president of VCDL, a well-respected organization that fights for the rights of all legal gun carriers and owners. "All" is the super set of Open Carriers.

    TFred
    TFred,

    If only what you stated were really true.

    VCDL was founded to get more gun priveledges for permit carriers. VCDL still prioritizes Perks for Permittees above Gun Rights (Open Carry Rights). While some on the VCDL board work hard for Gun Rights, others do not.

    I make these distinctions, not to be devisive, but to point out the differences between the philosophies. There are also some real questions as to whether P4P really helps or hurts gun rights in the long term. For example, is it really O.K. for Virginia to use the CHP to regulate behavior other than the concealed carry of a handgun? What is the nexus between the permit and the ability to openly carry certain long guns in certain cities of the Commonwealth. In other words, P4P allows the Commonwealth to convert some rights into priveledges. Good for P4P, but not for gun rights. Get it?

    If you think I am wrong about VCDL please explain:

    VCDL is currently AWOL on the State parks open carry issue. Seems they are very quiet since permittees added carry there to their perks. Issue would be completely dead, except for a few gun rights activists like Peter.

    Why were the permittee perks strongly endorsed by VCDL, while the Gun Rights legislation was only endorsed.

    The Libertarians, not VCDL carried the water for the Virginia Firearms Freedom Act, which would deliver real gun rights restoration to Virginia.

    I do not dislike VCDL. I used to be a member. I thought that their overemphasis on P4P was a fluke, over time I realized it wasn't a fluke, it was a pattern of behavior. I moved on and started working on open carry issues, as I believe open carry is the right.


    You have invested a great deal of time and energy into VCDL TFred. If you want to help them, then you should work to convince them that there is a rift between open carriers and the P4P crowd. It is a fault line that the Brady Bunch sees as a major weakness. They are working to fight Open Carry wherever they can. The way to heal the rift, and make gun owners "bulletproof" is to pass constitutional carry. Now that they have their concealed carry in restaurants perk, VCDL could make constitutional carry their top issue. If VCDL makes constitutional carry their top priority next year, I will again become a member and give them my full support. If they again go down the road of P4P then Gun Rights Activists need to evaluate whether a P4P focused organization is an appropriate place to expend time, money and energy.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  14. #14
    ccloud43
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    Dont quite agree

    Thunder while I do applaud you for standing up for gun rights, I believe you should stand up for ALL gun rights. You stated
    " If you want to help them, then you should work to convince them that there is a rift between open carriers and the P4P crowd. It is a fault line that the Brady Bunch sees as a major weakness. They are working to fight Open Carry wherever they can. The way to heal the rift, and make gun owners "bulletproof" is to pass constitutional carry."

    The way I see to HEAL the rift is for ALL pro gun people like ourselves to stand together and help defeat all anti-gun agenda. I have seen this same type of retoric among the hunting crowd. Bird hunters dont try and help out the deer hunters, vice versa, and the varmit hunters are always out in left field and dont get any help from either side. Yes I am a VCDL member, but I OC a lot more than I CC. I'm 99%OC and 1%CC. But i will still do all I can to support either method of carry, as well as supporting all forms of pro gun legislation. While you also state you wont become a member unless they make constitutional carry a top issue, I still believe you should give them your full support because they are doing a lot of good for Virginia. Like you said earlier, the Brady bunch sees a weakness, lets remove the weakness and all stand together and send the Brady bunch packing.
    Come on out tomorrow and I'll buy you a hotdog or hamburger and we can discuss this in person and bring up your ideas with Phillip and see what we can do next year.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I do not dislike VCDL. I used to be a member. I thought that their overemphasis on P4P was a fluke, over time I realized it wasn't a fluke, it was a pattern of behavior.
    Then why don't you re-join and work to change it.. the VCDL is not the NRA with hundreds of paid employees. The VCDL is US.. regular guys like you.. each doing a little piece of the pie. One of my gun rights neighbors gets the alerts but she is not a member. After almost every ALERT.. she said.. "I got an idea!! You know what YOU GUYS SHOULD DO??!! and then tells me her idea.." I said.. why don't YOU join and YOU DO IT!?!??! (and I would even help if I believe in the idea).. but she is too busy with work, life, kids, pool, beach, etc etc etc.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Then why don't you re-join and work to change it.. the VCDL is not the NRA with hundreds of paid employees. The VCDL is US.. regular guys like you.. each doing a little piece of the pie. One of my gun rights neighbors gets the alerts but she is not a member. After almost every ALERT.. she said.. "I got an idea!! You know what YOU GUYS SHOULD DO??!! and then tells me her idea.." I said.. why don't YOU join and YOU DO IT!?!??! (and I would even help if I believe in the idea).. but she is too busy with work, life, kids, pool, beach, etc etc etc.
    Ed,

    Thanks for the invite,and I don't mean to be impolite, but I will work with other organizations that fight harder for our rights.

    Look back at other posts about this topic. Constructive criticizm was not very welcome and the PMs were not pleasant. The rights restored message on all of the cakes was a classic example. When I tried to remind members on this forum that gun rights were not winners in the Virginia Senate the response was quite hostile.

    I tried to make some recommendations when VCDL held a meeting at the Norfolk Rifle Club a few years ago. No time or patience to really have a discussion on where we needed to go. I brought my then 18 year old son. He was shocked. We both expected a stronger stance from VCDL.

    I am realistic. Many on the VCDL board make a living, or at least part of their living from the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2). I don't see them working real hard to put themselves out of business.

    When VCDL makes a stand and accepts no compromise on gun rights I will be there.

    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I guess I have to wade in on this again.

    I'll speak for myself since Thundar is doing fine.

    First, there is a rift. Not irreparable IMO but definitely a rift. While I do stand up for all gunowners, even the ones that I'll dance at their funeral, I do not consider all so called pro gun bills beneficial.

    Concealed carry is here, shall issue is here, there are some holes to fill in but for all purposes, we have a good concealed carry law.

    Anything over and above that creates the special class and does NOT benefit ALL gun owners, just the special class.

    If you want gun or gun owner registration, just say so. Hell, those bills will just fly through Marsh's committee. He'd love it.

    Ed, VCDL is a good organization in many respects. I'm not sure it does represent ALL gun owners but I'm also not sure they do it intentionally. Going for the easy win goes hand in hand with growth.

    You of all people... and you know what I'm talking about... know the secrecy and and complexity that goes into the organizational tree and what it takes to stick a foot in the door.

    The simple fact is...a Concealed handgun permit is just that.
    It should not be a good citizen card, a form of identification or the gateway to gunowner Shangri Law.

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