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Thread: Felon in Possession Firearm question

  1. #51
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Brian, I had to call my attorney friend who is pretty versed in Criminal law. He had a copy of this, he read it, and then he gave me his non-binding opinion.

    Before the CPL law was passed, the ATF allowed general firearm possession in Michigan by those who fell under Michigan law. Basically, a non-listed felon could automatically get his federal rights back just by the passage of time.

    In 2001, the CPL law was passed that said felons could not get a license. Since now there was a restriction in the CPL law, those felons who had automatically got the right back, no longer had the right to possess a firearm.

    To cover that, Michigan gave the CPL authority to give CPL applicant w/ a felony a permit; ie getting rid of the state disability.

    It appears that at this point, felons could once again legally possess firearms under state and federal law.

    But, Public Act 739 of 2002 prohibits a felon from serving on a jury. Since the feds require that ALL rights must be restored, and that absent expungement, in Michigan a felon can't serve on a jury, federal law says a felon in Michigan can't possess a firearm no matter what the CPL Board says.

    BTW the court case was 2002, the jury law was PA 739 of 2002 which became law in October, 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    The problem is the ATF letter that I have provided at the end of this post. The case that you cited was decided without benefit of this letter. See letter below. The ATF is, IMHO, hostile to the 2nd Amendment. However, they are given almost complete control interpreting federal law regarding firearms. Absent a federal court decision specifically reversing this understanding, my opinion is that this would hold.


    An open Letter To the Michigan State Police
    1155 Brewery Park Boulevard, Suite 300
    Detroit, Michigan 48207-2602
    March 20, 2000
    This is to apprise you of the recent decision by the United States Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Hampton v. United States, 191 F. 3d 695 (6th Cir.
    1999). This decision affects whether certain Michigan felons are prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.
    The Gun Control Act of 1968 (“GCA”) makes it unlawful for any person who has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term
    exceeding one year to ship, transport, possess or receive a firearm. 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1). What constitutes a “conviction” for such a crime must
    be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20). Any conviction for which
    a person has received a pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights shall not be considered a conviction for GCA purposes, unless the
    pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms. Id.
    A State restores a felon’s civil rights for purposes of the GCA only if it allows him or her to vote, to hold public office, and to serve on a jury. Under Michigan
    law, a convicted felon is entitled to vote and hold public office once he or she is released from custody. Prior to the Hampton decision, the Sixth Circuit
    held in several cases that Michigan law did not restore the right to sit on a jury to Michigan felons upon completion of sentence. This line of cases was
    overturned by the Hampton decision, which held that Michigan law restores a felon’s right to sit on a jury upon completion of his or her sentence.
    Based on the Hampton decision, an individual who has been convicted of a felony in Michigan has his or her civil rights substantially restored upon
    completion of sentence. In determining whether the convicted felon still has Federal firearms disabilities, however, it is necessary to examine
    Michigan law to determine whether the felon is still subject to any restrictions on his or her firearms rights. In Caron v. United States, 524 U.S. 308;
    118 S. Ct. 2007, 2012 (1998), the Supreme Court held that Federal law prohibited convicted felons whose civil rights had been restored from
    receiving or possessing firearms if State law imposed even a partial restriction on their firearms rights.
    Michigan law places a convicted felon under two types of state firearms restrictions. The first restriction is under Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 750.224f,
    which prohibits a convicted felon from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving or distributing firearms.
    This restriction separates convicted felons into two categories; those convicted of specified felonies and those who are not. If the felony conviction is
    categorized as a “specified felony”, the felon is subject to this restriction for a period of five (5) years after he/she has met all conditions of sentence,
    i.e. released from prison, paid all fines, and completed all terms of probation and parole. Further, after this five (5) year period has expired the
    “specified felon” must also apply for and receive a restoration of his or her state firearms rights from the local concealed weapons licensing board
    (gun board). Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 750.224f(2)(b). A specified felony is defined under Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 750.224f(6) and includes
    crimes of violence against a person or property, burglaries (and breaking and entering) of occupied dwellings; drug offenses; offenses involving the
    possession or distribution of a firearm; offenses where there was the unlawful use of an explosive; and arson.
    Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 750.224f creates a different restriction for felons convicted of “non-specified” felonies. A ‘non-specified” felon is subject to the
    same restrictions as those convicted of “specified felonies” but only for a period of three (3) years after completion of all conditions of sentence. Further,
    there is no requirement for a felon convicted of a “non-specified” felony to obtain a restoration of his or her state firearms right from the local gun board.
    The second state law firearms restriction is imposed under Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 28.426(b) which provides that an application for a concealed
    weapons license cannot be approved if the applicant was convicted of a felony or confined for a felony in this state or elsewhere during the eight (8)
    years immediately preceding the date of his application. It is important to note that this restriction applies to all convicted felons across the board and
    does not categorize them based upon the type of felony conviction.
    An individual who has been convicted of a felony in Michigan is still subject to Federal firearms disabilities after completion of his or her sentence if
    Michigan law places any restrictions on that felon’s state firearms rights. Unless the convicted felon’s firearms rights have been completely restored
    under State law he/she is subject to the Federal prohibition on receipt or possession of a firearm. Accordingly, if a convicted felon is subject to either
    of the firearms restrictions under Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. 750.224f or 28.426 he or she is still subject to firearms disabilities under Federal law.
    If you have any further questions, please contact our Office of Division Counsel at (313) 393-6000.
    Sincerely yours,
    Michael W. Morrissey
    Division Director
    Detroit Field Division
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    Department of Treasury
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-20-2010 at 09:00 PM. Reason: spell check doesn't work well on new forum
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  2. #52
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Brian, I had to call my attorney friend who is pretty versed in Criminal law. He had a copy of this, he read it, and then he gave me his non-binding opinion.

    Before the CPL law was passed, the ATF allowed general firearm possession in Michigan by those who fell under Michigan law. Basically, a non-listed felon could automatically get his federal rights back just by the passage of time.

    In 2001, the CPL law was passed that said felons could not get a license. Since now there was a restriction in the CPL law, those felons who had automatically got the right back, no longer had the right to possess a firearm.

    To cover that, Michigan gave the CPL authority to give CPL applicant w/ a felony a permit; ie getting rid of the state disability.

    It appears that at this point, felons could once again legally possess firearms under state and federal law.

    But, Public Act 739 of 2002 prohibits a felon from serving on a jury. Since the feds require that ALL rights must be restored, and that absent expungement, in Michigan a felon can't serve on a jury, federal law says a felon in Michigan can't possess a firearm no matter what the CPL Board says.

    BTW the court case was 2002, the jury law was PA 739 of 2002 which became law in October, 2003.
    So if I read this right I am eligible to own a firearm now seeings my conviction was 15 odd years ago ???? AND it was a NON-specified felony???

  3. #53
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Brian, I had to call my attorney friend who is pretty versed in Criminal law. He had a copy of this, he read it, and then he gave me his non-binding opinion.

    Before the CPL law was passed, the ATF allowed general firearm possession in Michigan by those who fell under Michigan law. Basically, a non-listed felon could automatically get his federal rights back just by the passage of time.

    In 2001, the CPL law was passed that said felons could not get a license. Since now there was a restriction in the CPL law, those felons who had automatically got the right back, no longer had the right to possess a firearm.

    To cover that, Michigan gave the CPL authority to give CPL applicant w/ a felony a permit; ie getting rid of the state disability.

    It appears that at this point, felons could once again legally possess firearms under state and federal law.

    But, Public Act 739 of 2002 prohibits a felon from serving on a jury. Since the feds require that ALL rights must be restored, and that absent expungement, in Michigan a felon can't serve on a jury, federal law says a felon in Michigan can't possess a firearm no matter what the CPL Board says.

    BTW the court case was 2002, the jury law was PA 739 of 2002 which became law in October, 2003.
    Thanks so much for looking into this. Well done. So if a felon but can serve on a jury you would be okay. Or you could get a pardon, expungment and have all your rights restored.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #54
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    OC4me, its good that you asked the question before getting caught, with a gun. i don't know what your felony is for, but i will at least agree that yes, its far to easy to get hit with a felony!

    IMO yes some real dirt bags need to never see the light of day! rape, child molesters, and a few others, i don't think you should be held a felon for sex with a high school sweet heart, a good friend of mine got hit with a statutory rape charge, when he was 17 she 15 it was entirely consentual i had talked to her the next day and it was a prom night get a room thing!

    he now a felon and.......a sex offender! for doing IMO absolutely nothing wrong. would i be pissed if someone slept with my kid, yes. but unless it was actually a rape i wouldn't be going to the cops about it either.

    IMO the easiest however slowest way to get rid of guns is to not ban guns, but to make gun owners criminals. for very simple screw ups, get a speeding ticket, well that shows you have no self control and a blatant disrespect for the law, so nope you can't own guns.

    and lastly any firearm counts for felons, even OTC sales of black powder rifles and pistols, smooth bore or rifled.

    well thats IMO stay safe everyone!

  5. #55
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyMarbles View Post
    So if I read this right I am eligible to own a firearm now seeings my conviction was 15 odd years ago ???? AND it was a NON-specified felony???
    Afraid not. Perhaps I should distill it down to the situation right now: a felon MAY NOT possess a firearm in Michigan because Michigan does not allow a "Felon" to serve on a jury. Federal law requires that ALL disabilities (firearm AND other) be removed; MI law does NOT provide an exception the the jury law.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #56
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Afraid not. Perhaps I should distill it down to the situation right now: a felon MAY NOT possess a firearm in Michigan because Michigan does not allow a "Felon" to serve on a jury. Federal law requires that ALL disabilities (firearm AND other) be removed; MI law does NOT provide an exception the the jury law.
    WAit, I thought a felon could possess a firearm under state law, but would not be exempt from Federal law.

    My sources tell me that the State Police ARE informing the ATFE of any know felon (other than an expungment, pardon.) that may be approved for a purchase permit or a CPL. And the ATFE will actively investigate. Again this is hearsay as I did not hear this from the MSP or the ATFE.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #57
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    WAit, I thought a felon could possess a firearm under state law, but would not be exempt from Federal law.

    My sources tell me that the State Police ARE informing the ATFE of any know felon (other than an expungment, pardon.) that may be approved for a purchase permit or a CPL. And the ATFE will actively investigate. Again this is hearsay as I did not hear this from the MSP or the ATFE.
    So then I assume just petitioning the gun board is NOT going to allow me my full rights and I need to petition the Gov. for a pardon???

  8. #58
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    Asking the governor for a pardon might help at this time, especially seeing that its the end of her term. Choose your words carefully, Im sure its a one shot deal.

  9. #59
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    WAit, I thought a felon could possess a firearm under state law, but would not be exempt from Federal law.

    My sources tell me that the State Police ARE informing the ATFE of any know felon (other than an expungment, pardon.) that may be approved for a purchase permit or a CPL. And the ATFE will actively investigate. Again this is hearsay as I did not hear this from the MSP or the ATFE.
    "a felon could possess a firearm under state law, but would not be exempt from Federal law" If this means Michigan says it is OK to possess a firearm but feds say NO, then yes.

    Federal law requires that, in order for a felon to possess a firearm, the state in which the person lives has to have restored the person so that there is not any limit on their rights/privileges. Since Michigan law states that a felon may not serve on a jury and there is no exception (other than expungement) made in this particular law, no felon may possess a firearm. If Michigan law regarding the composition of juries had provided for a way that felons could serve on a jury, then it would presumably be legal for them to possess a firearm under federal law.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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