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Thread: Overseas U.S. Citizen wants CPL that will be recognized in MI.

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    Overseas U.S. Citizen wants CPL that will be recognized in MI.

    As an expatriate U.S. Citizen (currently living in Thailand) who is a U.S. Citizen, I'm wondering if there is any State that will allow me to get a concealed pistol license (i.e. through the mail, without having to hop on a plane and show up in person).

    I was born in Michigan and maintain a domicile in Florida (unfortunately I just found out that Florida will not let me 'renew' my existing CPL that expires this month - because I'm not physically 'residing' in the United States). I know I can open carry in Michigan when I visit family, but I'd like to have the CPL to avoid a felony should I mistakenly enter a GFZ or get in a car. For that matter, I guess I'd also need a CPL just to borrow a sidearm from a family member while in Michigan since all my pistols are in storage in Florida....bummer!

    I know its a long-shot but I am nevertheless hoping that there might be a way, thanks!

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    Regular Member G22's Avatar
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    http://michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

    All the info your looking for is listed below the CPL application.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    One issue may be this, I don't know if SAF was successful :

    http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=202
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    http://michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

    All the info your looking for is listed below the CPL application.
    Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).
    Good luck.

    Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

    IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Good luck.

    Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

    IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

    Bronson
    Bronson, thanks! That is good information, even though it is not exactly what I wanted to hear. So it appears that the only option would be open carry, which is fine enough by me assuming I can get a non-resident State permit from somewhere. With just such a permit, would I be able to 'borrow' a family member's pistol while open carrying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Good luck.

    Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

    IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

    Bronson
    Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?

    OC4Me, maybe try Utah? I used to be an Instructor for the State of Utah BCI. Many people used to get a CPL from Utah and carry in other places, including Mi., until the AG at the time issued an opinion that MI. Res was not legal in CC without a MI. License.

    This may have changed again. Could someone cite?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent1 View Post
    Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?

    OC4Me, maybe try Utah? I used to be an Instructor for the State of Utah BCI. Many people used to get a CPL from Utah and carry in other places, including Mi., until the AG at the time issued an opinion that MI. Res was not legal in CC without a MI. License.

    This may have changed again. Could someone cite?
    This discussion may answer your questions:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ry-in-Michigan
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent1 View Post
    Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?
    Yes, in order to conceal or vehicle carry in MI you must have a permit from your state of residence.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Yes, in order to conceal or vehicle carry in MI you must have a permit from your state of residence.

    Bronson
    Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for the confusion.

    Thanks also to Mr. Todd.

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    If Utah is possible, great, I'll look into it but I wonder about their training requirement. I do have a training certificate from my Florida CPL class but it is several years old. Training might be available here in Thailand (they have shooting ranges open to expatriates but none that I know of in the immediate area - plus I don't yet know if a foreign training certificate would even be accepted, maybe in a few States perhaps).

    Can a non-resident CPL holder carry a borrowed pistol in the State of Michigan?

    I'm hopeful that someday the Courts will work this all out in our favor (post McDonald) but that could be years away!
    Last edited by OC4me; 07-16-2010 at 02:20 PM.

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    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    If Utah is possible, great, I'll look into it but I wonder about their training requirement. I do have a training certificate from my Florida CPL class but it is several years old. Training might be available here in Thailand (they have shooting ranges open to expatriates but none that I know of in the immediate area - plus I don't yet know if a foreign training certificate would even be accepted, maybe in a few States perhaps).

    Can a non-resident CPL holder carry a borrowed pistol in the State of Michigan?

    I'm hopeful that someday the Courts will work this all out in our favor (post McDonald) but that could be years away!
    One thing with Utah, You have to have a Certified BCI Utah instructor give you the class. But there are instructors all over the USA. I was one of only two or three in Michigan for many years. Good luck.

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    Pay some rent to a friend, or family member, get a change of adress form, re route some mail, and dont forget to pay your taxes, and you should have a residence.

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    Regular Member G22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).
    Sorry, i misunderstood your question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Pay some rent to a friend, or family member, get a change of adress form, re route some mail, and dont forget to pay your taxes, and you should have a residence.
    Actually I do maintain a legal domicile in Florida, am registered to vote, receive my personal mail there, use the address for my tax returns, etc. It is just that Florida statutes state that permit holders have to be a 'resident' of Florida (or one of the States). While I believe that maintaining a domicile means that I am a legal resident of Florida for purposes of that statute, the head of the Florida licensing bureau that issues the CPLs disagrees (I have got that in writing from them). Very frustrating if you are a U.S. Citizen and can't legally carry a firearm for self-defense in your own state of 'legal residence". This issue also makes it seem impossible now to legally carry in Michigan as well. I know that someday, the courts will clear this up in the Citizen's favor but that will take a few years. Meanwhile, I have no practical way to exercise my Constitutional rights to carry for self-defense when I return to the States, either in Florida or if visiting relatives in Michigan.
    Last edited by OC4me; 07-18-2010 at 07:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

    I'd be looking into the law more thoroughly for Florida.

    You technically have a home there. If they really do require you to be living in the state when you apply, then it might be worth it to take a vacation home (if you can) to Florida and renewing in-person.

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    Zig is right, you need to do some digging on this one. By everything you said, you certainly are a resident. Perhaps you could take your issue to your state representative, and/or governor. With some research, and persistence you should be able to come out on top. This is ridiculous.


    This is


    I would see if there was an A2 attorney that you could speak with for some advice. Many wont charge for this sort of thing.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-18-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    FL has a non resident permit, since you don't reside in FL why couldn't you get a non-resident permit from FL" i had a non-resident permit from fl for quite some time. very easy process.
    shaun

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    FL has a non resident permit, since you don't reside in FL why couldn't you get a non-resident permit from FL" i had a non-resident permit from fl for quite some time. very easy process.
    shaun
    On it's face, it doesn't help him much. It would only let him OC as an "unlicensed" Michigan resident can. It could get interesting, though. He has (IIRC) a FL DL, with a Florida address. He would have a Non-resident license from his state of residence. ?!? I can see that getting verrrry confusing in a stop.

    Seems as though the head of the licensing bureau is just being an obstinate hardass.
    Last edited by Taurus850CIA; 07-25-2010 at 06:44 PM.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus850CIA View Post
    On it's face, it doesn't help him much. It would only let him OC as an "unlicensed" Michigan resident can. It could get interesting, though. He has (IIRC) a FL DL, with a Florida address. He would have a Non-resident license from his state of residence. ?!? I can see that getting verrrry confusing in a stop.

    Seems as though the head of the licensing bureau is just being an obstinate hardass.
    I used to have a FL license too. There was no indication on the license that the license was "non-resident", just the address of the licensee. IMHO, since Florida otherwise considers you a resident, if you could get the Ag Department who issues the Concealed Carry License to reconsider, there is no way once you got the license that a MI LEO would question it: FL Driver's License with address, Voting Card with address, Florida License to Carry would all indicate that you were legal.

    Furthermore, I've heard but have no proof that Florida no longer even lists an address on the CPL.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    agreed, no cop in MI would question a Non-resident permit, with a address in florida! there is no difference in appearance! only the addy gives it away! IMHO FL is being a *****, you are a US citizen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with legal address in FL!!!!!!!!!!! IMHO its a no brainer!

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    As an expatriate U.S. Citizen (currently living in Thailand) who is a U.S. Citizen, I'm wondering if there is any State that will allow me to get a concealed pistol license (i.e. through the mail, without having to hop on a plane and show up in person).

    I was born in Michigan and maintain a domicile in Florida (unfortunately I just found out that Florida will not let me 'renew' my existing CPL that expires this month - because I'm not physically 'residing' in the United States). I know I can open carry in Michigan when I visit family, but I'd like to have the CPL to avoid a felony should I mistakenly enter a GFZ or get in a car. For that matter, I guess I'd also need a CPL just to borrow a sidearm from a family member while in Michigan since all my pistols are in storage in Florida....bummer!

    I know its a long-shot but I am nevertheless hoping that there might be a way, thanks!
    How did the Florida concealed licensing people know that you were out of the country if everything else indicates that you live in Florida? It seems the only way that they would have been alerted was A), you explicitly told them or, B) you asked that the license be sent to a place out of the US.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan MCL Section 28.432a, Sec. 12a., paragraph h) states that requirement to obtain CPL does not apply to:

    (h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.

    What is interesting is that statute does not define meaning of word "state". I think one has to use a common dictionary in this case. So, online Webster Dictionary defines "state" as a noun in 23 different ways. One of these are as follows:

    "A politically organized body of people under a single government"

    So, it looks to me if a person who lives in Thailand can obtain a "resident" CPL or CCW permit (or its equivalent), then this person can carry concealed legally in Michigan unless some Federal laws prevent this. I do not know if it is possible in Thailand, but, in some countries it is very possible. Switzerland, Israel and some other countries (surprisingly some former Eastern European countries) issue carry permits to residents.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasha601 View Post
    Michigan MCL Section 28.432a, Sec. 12a., paragraph h) states that requirement to obtain CPL does not apply to:

    (h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.

    What is interesting is that statute does not define meaning of word "state". I think one has to use a common dictionary in this case. So, online Webster Dictionary defines "state" as a noun in 23 different ways. One of these are as follows:

    "A politically organized body of people under a single government"

    So, it looks to me if a person who lives in Thailand can obtain a "resident" CPL or CCW permit (or its equivalent), then this person can carry concealed legally in Michigan unless some Federal laws prevent this. I do not know if it is possible in Thailand, but, in some countries it is very possible. Switzerland, Israel and some other countries (surprisingly some former Eastern European countries) issue carry permits to residents.
    It COULD be an argument but USUALLY "state" with a lowercase "s" refers to a state within the US, "State" with a capital "S" refers to a country.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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