Overseas U.S. Citizen wants CPL that will be recognized in MI.

OC4me · Jul 15, 2010

As an expatriate U.S. Citizen (currently living in Thailand) who is a U.S. Citizen, I'm wondering if there is any State that will allow me to get a concealed pistol license (i.e. through the mail, without having to hop on a plane and show up in person).

I was born in Michigan and maintain a domicile in Florida (unfortunately I just found out that Florida will not let me 'renew' my existing CPL that expires this month - because I'm not physically 'residing' in the United States). I know I can open carry in Michigan when I visit family, but I'd like to have the CPL to avoid a felony should I mistakenly enter a GFZ or get in a car. For that matter, I guess I'd also need a CPL just to borrow a sidearm from a family member while in Michigan since all my pistols are in storage in Florida....bummer!

I know its a long-shot but I am nevertheless hoping that there might be a way, thanks!

G22 · Jul 15, 2010

http://michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

All the info your looking for is listed below the CPL application.

DrTodd · Jul 15, 2010

One issue may be this, I don't know if SAF was successful :

http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=202

OC4me · Jul 16, 2010

G22 said:
http://michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

All the info your looking for is listed below the CPL application.

Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

Bronson · Jul 16, 2010

OC4me said:
I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

Good luck.

Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

Bronson

OC4me · Jul 16, 2010

Bronson said:
Good luck.

Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

Bronson

Bronson, thanks! That is good information, even though it is not exactly what I wanted to hear. So it appears that the only option would be open carry, which is fine enough by me assuming I can get a non-resident State permit from somewhere. With just such a permit, would I be able to 'borrow' a family member's pistol while open carrying?

Agent1 · Jul 16, 2010

Bronson said:
Good luck.

Michigan does not recognize an out of state non-resident concealed permit for concealed carry.

IF you could find a state to issue you a non-resident permit it would allow you to open carry in the open carry pistol free zones but you couldn't have it in the passenger compartment of your car and you couldn't conceal it.

Bronson

Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?

OC4Me, maybe try Utah? I used to be an Instructor for the State of Utah BCI. Many people used to get a CPL from Utah and carry in other places, including Mi., until the AG at the time issued an opinion that MI. Res was not legal in CC without a MI. License.

This may have changed again. Could someone cite?

DrTodd · Jul 16, 2010

Agent1 said:
Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?

OC4Me, maybe try Utah? I used to be an Instructor for the State of Utah BCI. Many people used to get a CPL from Utah and carry in other places, including Mi., until the AG at the time issued an opinion that MI. Res was not legal in CC without a MI. License.

This may have changed again. Could someone cite?

This discussion may answer your questions:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?77064-Non-Resident-Carry-in-Michigan

Bronson · Jul 16, 2010

Agent1 said:
Bronson, I am a bit confused with your statement. I know that Michigan doesn't allow Michigan Res. to CC on a non-res permit, but do they require a Non-Res to have a permit from there Home State?

Yes, in order to conceal or vehicle carry in MI you must have a permit from your state of residence.

Bronson

Agent1 · Jul 16, 2010

Thanks!

Bronson said:
Yes, in order to conceal or vehicle carry in MI you must have a permit from your state of residence.

Bronson

Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks also to Mr. Todd.

OC4me · Jul 16, 2010

If Utah is possible, great, I'll look into it but I wonder about their training requirement. I do have a training certificate from my Florida CPL class but it is several years old. Training might be available here in Thailand (they have shooting ranges open to expatriates but none that I know of in the immediate area - plus I don't yet know if a foreign training certificate would even be accepted, maybe in a few States perhaps).

Can a non-resident CPL holder carry a borrowed pistol in the State of Michigan?

I'm hopeful that someday the Courts will work this all out in our favor (post McDonald) but that could be years away!

Agent1 · Jul 16, 2010

OC4me said:
If Utah is possible, great, I'll look into it but I wonder about their training requirement. I do have a training certificate from my Florida CPL class but it is several years old. Training might be available here in Thailand (they have shooting ranges open to expatriates but none that I know of in the immediate area - plus I don't yet know if a foreign training certificate would even be accepted, maybe in a few States perhaps).

Can a non-resident CPL holder carry a borrowed pistol in the State of Michigan?

I'm hopeful that someday the Courts will work this all out in our favor (post McDonald) but that could be years away!

One thing with Utah, You have to have a Certified BCI Utah instructor give you the class. But there are instructors all over the USA. I was one of only two or three in Michigan for many years. Good luck.

stainless1911 · Jul 16, 2010

Pay some rent to a friend, or family member, get a change of adress form, re route some mail, and dont forget to pay your taxes, and you should have a residence.

G22 · Jul 18, 2010

OC4me said:
Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

Sorry, i misunderstood your question.

OC4me · Jul 18, 2010

stainless1911 said:
Pay some rent to a friend, or family member, get a change of adress form, re route some mail, and dont forget to pay your taxes, and you should have a residence.

Actually I do maintain a legal domicile in Florida, am registered to vote, receive my personal mail there, use the address for my tax returns, etc. It is just that Florida statutes state that permit holders have to be a 'resident' of Florida (or one of the States). While I believe that maintaining a domicile means that I am a legal resident of Florida for purposes of that statute, the head of the Florida licensing bureau that issues the CPLs disagrees (I have got that in writing from them). Very frustrating if you are a U.S. Citizen and can't legally carry a firearm for self-defense in your own state of 'legal residence". This issue also makes it seem impossible now to legally carry in Michigan as well. I know that someday, the courts will clear this up in the Citizen's favor but that will take a few years. Meanwhile, I have no practical way to exercise my Constitutional rights to carry for self-defense when I return to the States, either in Florida or if visiting relatives in Michigan.

zigziggityzoo · Jul 18, 2010

OC4me said:
Sorry the above link is not applicable (info doesn't help me). I'm NOT a Michigan resident so I cannot apply for a Michigan CPL, which is the identical problem I'm facing with my home state of Florida since I am overseas in Thailand. I'm hoping that there is some State that will issue a CPL to non-resident U.S. citizens (and that CPL is also recoginized by Michigan).

I'd be looking into the law more thoroughly for Florida.

You technically have a home there. If they really do require you to be living in the state when you apply, then it might be worth it to take a vacation home (if you can) to Florida and renewing in-person.

stainless1911 · Jul 18, 2010

Zig is right, you need to do some digging on this one. By everything you said, you certainly are a resident. Perhaps you could take your issue to your state representative, and/or governor. With some research, and persistence you should be able to come out on top. This is ridiculous.

This is

I would see if there was an A2 attorney that you could speak with for some advice. Many wont charge for this sort of thing.

NHCGRPR45 · Jul 25, 2010

FL has a non resident permit, since you don't reside in FL why couldn't you get a non-resident permit from FL" i had a non-resident permit from fl for quite some time. very easy process.
shaun

Taurus850CIA · Jul 25, 2010

NHCGRPR45 said:
FL has a non resident permit, since you don't reside in FL why couldn't you get a non-resident permit from FL" i had a non-resident permit from fl for quite some time. very easy process.
shaun

On it's face, it doesn't help him much. It would only let him OC as an "unlicensed" Michigan resident can. It could get interesting, though. He has (IIRC) a FL DL, with a Florida address. He would have a Non-resident license from his state of residence. ?!? I can see that getting verrrry confusing in a stop.

Seems as though the head of the licensing bureau is just being an obstinate hardass.

DrTodd · Jul 26, 2010

Taurus850CIA said:
On it's face, it doesn't help him much. It would only let him OC as an "unlicensed" Michigan resident can. It could get interesting, though. He has (IIRC) a FL DL, with a Florida address. He would have a Non-resident license from his state of residence. ?!? I can see that getting verrrry confusing in a stop.

Seems as though the head of the licensing bureau is just being an obstinate hardass.

I used to have a FL license too. There was no indication on the license that the license was "non-resident", just the address of the licensee. IMHO, since Florida otherwise considers you a resident, if you could get the Ag Department who issues the Concealed Carry License to reconsider, there is no way once you got the license that a MI LEO would question it: FL Driver's License with address, Voting Card with address, Florida License to Carry would all indicate that you were legal.

Furthermore, I've heard but have no proof that Florida no longer even lists an address on the CPL.

Overseas U.S. Citizen wants CPL that will be recognized in MI.

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