Birmingham Police Force Open Carriers To Leave STARBUCKS!!!!

kwikrnu said:

If you were lawfully carrying then let them arrest you again. Your Federal lawsuit can be amended and more defendants added. If you lose your job that is more damages. Was everyone in the group out on bail?

It is illegal to open carry a rifle on this forum, read the rules.

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You're play pretty fast and loose with other people's freedom and jobs.

And, it is not "illegal" to open carry a rifle "on this forum." This forum is not about OC of rifles, and talking about doing so is considered to be off-topic. However, this thread is about being harassed for OC of handguns (which is on-topic for this forum). The fact that a case is pending regarding OC of a rifle is provided only as background to the choices made by one of the folks being harassed.

If you are going to visit the Alabama sub-forum, I hope you show more respect for the Alabama OCers in the future. Your two posts in this thread are judgmental and rude--unacceptably so.

kwikrnu said:

If you were lawfully carrying then let them arrest you again. Your Federal lawsuit can be amended and more defendants added. If you lose your job that is more damages.

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And what do we do in the meantime for, you know, bills, food, a house payment... I thought you, of all people, would understand, but you have shown time and again you are only in it for the payday. That's pretty sad. Besides, we got a sergeant to admit that what we were doing was legal, on camera. Can you claim you have done as well? We got to say that we left that Starbucks of our own free will, on good terms with at least one of the officers. Can you say the same about your encounters?

Was everyone in the group out on bail?

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No, and I'm sure we'd like to keep it that way if at all possible. I, for one, would rather go OC somewhere else when faced with a choice between that and having my liberty infringed, my firearm confiscated, my record tarnished, and my livelihood taken. Also, I will not make a choice that negatively affects other people. If it had just been me, I may have pushed the issue. However, I will not make the choice to bring others down with me, especially if they have more to lose than I do.

It is illegal to open carry a rifle on this forum, read the rules.

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You know? Ever since the forum switch, I haven't been able to find that particular rule. Could you please cite it? And I would love for you to try and stop someone from OCing a rifle on this forum. I could be doing it right now and you would never know, for example. Maybe you should re-think your choice of words.

In the state of Alabama, OC of any kind of firearm (or other weapon for that matter) is legal. We should support anyone who is arrested for doing something legal, not just the ones wearing handguns.

kwikrnu said:

If you were lawfully carrying then let them arrest you again. Your Federal lawsuit can be amended and more defendants added. If you lose your job that is more damages. Was everyone in the group out on bail?

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Some people OC for other reasons that to escalate armed confrontations so they can sue and get a check.

mcdonalk said:

And what do we do in the meantime for, you know, bills, food, a house payment.

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Apparently his job is litigation so it is unlikely he will understand.


Kwik, these are BRAVE MEN doing something that is causing personal hardship. They take this risk to make life better for their fellow citizens. You have NO RIGHT to come here and berate them. I think it is safe to say they don't want your kind of help.

Jonathon Norris said:

I'm out on bail, and if arrested again, bail gets revoked. Then I lose job.

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DEY'LL TAKE HIZ JERB! </troll>

mcdonalk said:

And what do we do in the meantime for, you know, bills, food, a house payment... I thought you, of all people, would understand, but you have shown time and again you are only in it for the payday. That's pretty sad. Besides, we got a sergeant to admit that what we were doing was legal, on camera. Can you claim you have done as well? We got to say that we left that Starbucks of our own free will, on good terms with at least one of the officers. Can you say the same about your encounters?

No, and I'm sure we'd like to keep it that way if at all possible. I, for one, would rather go OC somewhere else when faced with a choice between that and having my liberty infringed, my firearm confiscated, my record tarnished, and my livelihood taken. Also, I will not make a choice that negatively affects other people. If it had just been me, I may have pushed the issue. However, I will not make the choice to bring others down with me, especially if they have more to lose than I do.


You know? Ever since the forum switch, I haven't been able to find that particular rule. Could you please cite it? And I would love for you to try and stop someone from OCing a rifle on this forum. I could be doing it right now and you would never know, for example. Maybe you should re-think your choice of words.

In the state of Alabama, OC of any kind of firearm (or other weapon for that matter) is legal. We should support anyone who is arrested for doing something legal, not just the ones wearing handguns.

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If you can't afford to get arrested and cops are arresting people for simply open carrying a handgun my suggestion is do not open carry. If you are worried about an arrest record you shouldn't open carry where it is known cops arrest people for open carry. If you open carry where arrests are common you may want to rethink owning just one handgun. I am a nursing student seeking an RN degree so if I am arrested I lose a year of school. I'm not worried because that year is going to cost them. I obey the laws and will not cave to unlawful orders. I will not sign an arrest citation. Your caving in to the order to leave emboldens that cop and every cop he tells. Your group didn't do anything for open carry. The cop may have recognized that open carry is legal, but that is of little value when you run away like scared school girls when the cops come calling.

I have three lawsuits pending and an ouster complaint to the AG. I have two more lawsuits on the wings. I have video and audio evidence of cops stopping me illegally w/o RAS or PC, searching me w/o PC or RAS, running serial #'s w/o RAS or PC. I have evidence of retaliation, oppression, malfeasance, and other civil rights violations. I don't care if cops like me, I only care that they respect my rights. This isn't about me it is about your youtube video and Alabama Carry.

kwikrnu said:

If you can't afford to get arrested and cops are arresting people for simply open carrying a handgun my suggestion is do not open carry. If you are worried about an arrest record you shouldn't open carry where it is known cops arrest people for open carry. If you open carry where arrests are common you may want to rethink owning just one handgun. I am a nursing student seeking an RN degree so if I am arrested I lose a year of school. I'm not worried because that year is going to cost them. I obey the laws and will not cave to unlawful orders. I will not sign an arrest citation. Your caving in to the order to leave emboldens that cop and every cop he tells. Your group didn't do anything for open carry. The cop may have recognized that open carry is legal, but that is of little value when you run away like scared school girls when the cops come calling.

I have three lawsuits pending and an ouster complaint to the AG. I have two more lawsuits on the wings. I have video and audio evidence of cops stopping me illegally w/o RAS or PC, searching me w/o PC or RAS, running serial #'s w/o RAS or PC. I have evidence of retaliation, oppression, malfeasance, and other civil rights violations. I don't care if cops like me, I only care that they respect my rights. This isn't about me it is about your youtube video and Alabama Carry.

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its really hard for me to believe that you chose to live your life that way...

Just my .02

Under the circumstances I think you did a great job. If I were in your shoes, bail and all, I am sure I would have done the same thing.

If it were different circumstances...

" So you were called because someone was 'alarmed' for me legally carrying a firearm and you are asking me to leave?"

"Well, officer, I am 'alarmed' that the gentleman over there is wearing a University of Missouri (go tigers) t-shirt, will you please ask him to leave?"

"If someone called because they were 'alarmed' they saw a black man at the lunch counter, would you ask the black gentleman to leave?" (1960's Civil Rights, less we forget)

I would think that in Alabama of all places, the officer would see the silliness and magnitude (violation of your civil rights) of the whole situation.

This is nothing but discrimination, plain and simple.

The officer should have done his duty, informed the "alarmed" party in question that what you were doing was completely legal and gone on his way. By you leaving, IMHO ( and like I said before, if I were in the same situation as you, done the same thing) it just supported the belief that OC is a bad thing.

Alarmed Party - 1
OC -0
Police Informed - sure, but to no avail.

BTW...good luck with your case.

Z

cowboy67 said:

Macgulley...My take on it would be that yes the police would have had to leave the premises if they were inside the shop, but from the video, it looks to me that they were sitting on the sidewalk so I would think the manager would not have much say in the situation even though the cops were in the wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong...

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I believe when a company like starbucks has sidewalk cafe's they have to have a permit. That would mean starbucks is renting part of the sidewalk. That means it is part of their buisness, with that, I believe it is like you were in thier store. So OC would be legal there even if someone walks by and tells you to leave. Just my thought.

kwikrnu said:

If you can't afford to get arrested and cops are arresting people for simply open carrying a handgun my suggestion is do not open carry...

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Ya know, if the goal of OC was to confront the police and set up lawsuits, you'd have a point. For us (and, I hope I am speaking for "Jon-n-Con"), that ain't the goal. For you, it is. Stop being judgmental of those who exercise the right for, IMO, more righteous reasons.

Anyway, I've had enough of your judgmentalism. Bye.

kwikrnu said:

I commented on the video. Next time stand up for yourselves instead of getting kicked out and talking behind the cops.

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Yep...

zekester said:

Under the circumstances I think you did a great job. If I were in your shoes, bail and all, I am sure I would have done the same thing.

If it were different circumstances...

" So you were called because someone was 'alarmed' for me legally carrying a firearm and you are asking me to leave?"


"If someone called because they were 'alarmed' they saw a black man at the lunch counter, would you ask the black gentleman to leave?" (1960's Civil Rights, less we forget)


This is nothing but discrimination, plain and simple.

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EXACTLY! What is the difference between YOUR civil rights, and the civil rights of the Black man at the counter! None whatsoever!

The black man used to be arrested for entering a white establishment, but he beat it by standing up for his rights. The white folks were "Alarmed" about that too, and would call the cops (or just beat him up). If he left every time because he feared he might be arrested, he would still be prohibited (notice I didn't say "unwelcome...he still has a long way to go...)

Gun owners must do the same.

Mind you, I think you did fine. Not everyone is cut out to be a front line combatant. To each his own. But, you could have done better. You know it. I know it. but WTF? Who cares. Just keep carrying! As long as you don't let them scare you out of doing that, you are OK.

Thundar said:

Three bricks to the Birmingham Police:

1) Abusing the civil rights of open carriers, strike 1

2) Inflicting cruel and unusual punishment on caffiene addicts, strike 2

3) Allowing a police officer with hoplophobia mental disorder to carry a firearm, strike 3

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4) Arrogating to themselves the authority to violate private property rights and tell customers they must leave a business, when the business doesn't object to the customers.

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/codeofalabama/1975/15-5-30.htm

Section 15-5-30
Authority of peace officer to stop and question.

A sheriff or other officer acting as sheriff, his deputy or any constable, acting within their respective counties, any marshal, deputy marshal or policeman of any incorporated city or town within the limits of the county or any highway patrolman or state trooper may stop any person abroad in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
(Acts 1966, Ex. Sess., No. 157, p. 183, §1.)

Also, the fact that there was a fight at the Starbucks over the use of the men's restroom at or around 10:00 AM precipitated the response.

redreed said:

Mind you, I think you did fine. Not everyone is cut out to be a front line combatant...

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I love it when people comment without all of the facts.

At least one of the OCers was out on bail for a previous arrest for lawful OC. How many times does he need to be arrested to qualify for what you deem as a "front line combatant"? Before folks make judgmental posts in the Alabama forum, maybe they ought to read a few of the threads and find out what is going on.

kwikrnu said:

If you can't afford to get arrested and cops are arresting people for simply open carrying a handgun my suggestion is do not open carry. If you are worried about an arrest record you shouldn't open carry where it is known cops arrest people for open carry. If you open carry where arrests are common you may want to rethink owning just one handgun. I am a nursing student seeking an RN degree so if I am arrested I lose a year of school. I'm not worried because that year is going to cost them. I obey the laws and will not cave to unlawful orders. I will not sign an arrest citation. Your caving in to the order to leave emboldens that cop and every cop he tells. Your group didn't do anything for open carry. The cop may have recognized that open carry is legal, but that is of little value when you run away like scared school girls when the cops come calling.

I have three lawsuits pending and an ouster complaint to the AG. I have two more lawsuits on the wings. I have video and audio evidence of cops stopping me illegally w/o RAS or PC, searching me w/o PC or RAS, running serial #'s w/o RAS or PC. I have evidence of retaliation, oppression, malfeasance, and other civil rights violations. I don't care if cops like me, I only care that they respect my rights. This isn't about me it is about your youtube video and Alabama Carry.

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lawsuits are fun
i like turtles

ItTakesAWolf said:

its really hard for me to believe that you chose to live your life that way...

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It isn't just soldiers in foreign countries who do hard things so you don't have to.

Everyday Joes risk the mockery of the very people whom they benefit.

If not Kwikrnu, then who?

There was a time when Danbus was an agitator. Now what he did has spread across the whole nation. If not for the 'weirdos' pushing the limits, what you do would be considered weird.

'Loonies' with orange muzzle breaks or purple paint on their AK pistols make your 1911 or Glock, etc., look rather sedate, no?

I like Kwik. He does what everyone else is too much of a sissy to do, and he does it knowing you'll mock him for it out of embarrassment for yourselves and your own lack of fortitude.

In the filthy degenerate Police Academy I attended for a whole 3 weeks, I heard a very interesting lie. "Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking." Hell, it's easy to do the right thing when no one is looking. There is no punishment for doing good when no one sees it. But going straight into the mess, with everyone watching, knowing full well that you will face their wrath, even for their own good... That takes guts and dedication. The kind of thing The Founders had. The same thing that most people on this forum talk about, but then mock when they see someone actually DO it. Integrity is doing the right thing, regardless of who is watching or not. Never selling out to the threatened consequences. Fear does not alter truth, but it does test a Man's ability to hold on to it.

I'd roll with Kwik any day. People like him are the reason no one cares when you carry your XD. Some call him rude and provocative, among other things... To insult the man shows only one's own weakness and deficiency of fortitude. Staring the truth in the face, in walking, talking human form, hurts. People can accept it and better themselves, or they can start name-calling and excuse-making... I've repeatedly made it quite clear, not just where I stand, but where logic, reason, and freedom stand on that matter.

It's not easy being green, or orange in this case... But someone's gotta do it.

Kirbinator said:

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/codeofalabama/1975/15-5-30.htm

Section 15-5-30
Authority of peace officer to stop and question.

A sheriff or other officer acting as sheriff, his deputy or any constable, acting within their respective counties, any marshal, deputy marshal or policeman of any incorporated city or town within the limits of the county or any highway patrolman or state trooper may stop any person abroad in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
(Acts 1966, Ex. Sess., No. 157, p. 183, §1.)

Also, the fact that there was a fight at the Starbucks over the use of the men's restroom at or around 10:00 AM precipitated the response.

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You highlighted (by underlining) the wrong part. Let's try it again:

A sheriff or other officer acting as sheriff, his deputy or any constable, acting within their respective counties, any marshal, deputy marshal or policeman of any incorporated city or town within the limits of the county or any highway patrolman or state trooper may stop any person abroad in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions.

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This is what we call a codification of the Terry Standard. Many states have written a similar statute, and they all share similar language. That language is lifted, not coincidentally, directly from the SCOTUS ruling in Terry v. Ohio.

Reasonable. Articulable. Suspicion.

If the officer can't cite the law, he can't possibly articulate a reasonable suspicion that it has been violated.

In this case, there was a very lame claim of "alarming the public". The police supervisor on duty stated to everyone involved that they weren't violating any law. And then he ordered them to leave anyway.

Nobody was disarmed. Nobody was told to "cover it up". They were just told to leave, which makes it clear the police did not think there was a crime going on. It also puts the lie to the claim that they were "alarming the public", since we presume the same public would see them walking down the street that saw them sitting on the sidewalk cafe.

ixtow said:

Kwik. He does what everyone else is too much of a sissy to do

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You are right. I don't plan continually escalating armed confrontations until I get the reactions I want and then sue and take the first settlement that is offered, doing nothing for gun right, only getting a paycheck. Sure, you can call me a sissy for that. I just carry a properly holstered handgun in daily life for the defense of myself and my family.

i'd like to see a headline like; starbucks patrons force disruptive police to leave open carry patrons alone.

ixtow said:

...
I'd roll with Kwik any day. People like him are the reason no one cares when you carry your XD. Some call him rude and provocative, among other things... To insult the man shows only one's own weakness and deficiency of fortitude. Staring the truth in the face, in walking, talking human form, hurts. People can accept it and better themselves, or they can start name-calling and excuse-making... I've repeatedly made it quite clear, not just where I stand, but where logic, reason, and freedom stand on that matter.

It's not easy being green, or orange in this case... But someone's gotta do it.

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Yet you would not come out when we had the Florida Open Carry Event on July 3rd because you feared the police would shoot us all. :banghead:

ixtow said:

I'm going to actually have to see FL Cops not kill you all for laughs, first.

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It's easy to talk big on the internet.
Having a public confrontation with the police does nothing good for the public's perception of open carry. It is best to simply document what happened and comply with the officer's unlawful order; then deal with violations of your rights through legislative action, officer training, formal complaints, and the courts.