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Thread: Fake FBI agents try to break into occupied home

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Fake FBI agents try to break into occupied home

    There ARE people out there posing as LEO's in order to commit home invasions.

    http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/new...reak-into-home

    I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but THIS is a perfect example of why no-knock warrants need to be eliminated. Fortunately, these guys didn't get in the house, and no one got hurt, but just think how things COULD have gone down.

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    These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

    BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

    BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
    I figured that you would say something like that. A couple things in response:

    1. You didn't watch the video - I can tell. The surveillance video shows that the "agents" did not knock. They immediately attempted to gain entry.

    2. I am not suggesting that we eliminate warrants that require announcement.

    3. As for this not pertaining directly to OC, you are correct. However, this pertains directly to self-defense, and the law, which are often discussed on this site. I'm sorry that this post does not meet your personal quality standards. Please feel free to post that you are "moving along", as you are so apt to doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    I figured that you would say something like that. A couple things in response:

    1. You didn't watch the video - I can tell. The surveillance video shows that the "agents" did not knock. They immediately attempted to gain entry. The family reported hearing them announce themselves. Therefore, they were not faking a no-knock warrant.

    2. I am not suggesting that we eliminate warrants that require announcement. I didn't say that you did. Let me make the point more bluntly: Since they were not faking a no-knock warrant, this story does not support a contention against no-knock warrants.

    3. As for this not pertaining directly to OC, you are correct. However, this pertains directly to self-defense, and the law, which are often discussed on this site. I'm sorry that this post does not meet your personal quality standards. Please feel free to post that you are "moving along", as you are so apt to doing Had you made self-defense the point of your post, then it would have been on-topic. As your point is to rail against no-knock warrants, it is not on the topic of OC. I thought I had made that point in my original answer. Since I am now having to be repetitive, it is time to move on..
    My responses are in blue.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    I'm going to try to make this really simple.... The reason this supports my belief that no-knock warrants should be eliminated is because of the increased opportunity for criminals posing as LEOs to exploit people. I am providing a real example that shows that there ARE people out there who attempt to gain illegal entry into an occupied home under the guise of being LEOs.

    The guys announced themselves as FBI at some point - as they were already in the act of attempting to gain entry. The video clearly shows that these men were trying the handle of the door as soon as their feet hit the porch - they never gave the homeowner opportunity to come to the door first. Had the door not been locked, they would have been inside instantly - that's close enough to feigning a no-knock warrant as far as I'm concerned.

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    Regular Member SaintJacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

    BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
    Given the frequency with which we encounter LEOs I would argue that anything dealing with LEO policies on public interaction is on topic.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJacque View Post
    Given the frequency with which we encounter LEOs I would argue that anything dealing with LEO policies on public interaction is on topic.
    If you were a betting man, you would lose.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
    I poster this in the "True Tales of Self Defense" Section earlier today. Definately on topic there.

    This poses a very significant dilemma for gun owners. Geez, I don't want to relive the Ryan Frederick crap all over again, but it is very similar.

    No-knock and home assaults by police are inherintly dangerous for all involved. In MacDonald the Supreme Court reaffirmed the justified use of force against evil doers, even if they are government evil doers. The problem is how does the homeowner know in advance whether the home invasion is the service of a warant or the beginning of a drug thug rampage?
    Last edited by Thundar; 07-16-2010 at 05:04 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I poster this in the "True Tales of Self Defense" Section earlier today. Definately on topic there.

    This poses a very significant dilemma for gun owners. Geez, I don't want to relive the Ryan Frederick crap all over again, but it is very similar...
    As you quoted, I pointed out that discussion of the homeowner using his gun for self-defense would be on-topic.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

    BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.

    As you quoted, I pointed out that discussion of the homeowner using his gun for self-defense would be on-topic.
    Open carry's #1 topic-cop strikes again. Twice in the same thread no less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    Open carry's #1 topic-cop strikes again. Twice in the same thread no less.
    You must be the topic-cop-cop. No matter. Of to ignore-land with you.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    I thought you moved on?

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    An ex LEO friend gave me some very good advice once...

    NEVER open your doors to the police, Feds, etc. You are under no obligation to open the door no matter what it says on their badge.

    If they need to speak with you they can do it through the door or over the phone. Ask for a badge number and call 911, ask to be transferred to a non-emergency operator and ask them to patch you through to the officer by badge number... no need to open the door.

    Or ask them which office they are from, call 411 and call their office, ask to be patched through that way.

    If they say they have a search / arrest warrant, make them break down the door.

    Chances are, even if they are legitimate LEO's they aren't going to breech the door. A search warrant will wait for somebody much farther up the food chain to authorize taking the door. An arrest warrant will probably cause them to wait for you to step outside.

    Sadly, opening your door upon request opens you up to impersonators intending bad things. But it also opens you up to getting searched illegally... a cop can say they smelled pot, saw a gun, heard a scream... they can make up just about anything as "probable cause" to gain entry once you open that door.

    It's a privacy matter, it's a security matter. Keep the door shut and locked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    I thought you moved on?
    And, having done so, I am no longer discussing this topic with you. Have a blessed day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddy4count View Post
    An ex LEO friend gave me some very good advice once...

    NEVER open your doors to the police, Feds, etc. You are under no obligation to open the door no matter what it says on their badge.

    If they need to speak with you they can do it through the door or over the phone. Ask for a badge number and call 911, ask to be transferred to a non-emergency operator and ask them to patch you through to the officer by badge number... no need to open the door.

    Or ask them which office they are from, call 411 and call their office, ask to be patched through that way.

    If they say they have a search / arrest warrant, make them break down the door.

    Chances are, even if they are legitimate LEO's they aren't going to breech the door. A search warrant will wait for somebody much farther up the food chain to authorize taking the door. An arrest warrant will probably cause them to wait for you to step outside.

    Sadly, opening your door upon request opens you up to impersonators intending bad things. But it also opens you up to getting searched illegally... a cop can say they smelled pot, saw a gun, heard a scream... they can make up just about anything as "probable cause" to gain entry once you open that door.

    It's a privacy matter, it's a security matter. Keep the door shut and locked.
    Sound advice. Thanks.

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    Well it is hard to tell who the real criminals are anymore, both are dressing up with masks on now a days anyways. Either way i will treat both the same as a threat.

    "Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as 'ninja' ... Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view."---JEFF COOPER

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    Well it is hard to tell who the real criminals are anymore, both are dressing up with masks on now a days anyways. Either way i will treat both the same as a threat.

    "Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as 'ninja' ... Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view."---JEFF COOPER
    Had not seen that quote from Cooper before. How true. The only difference from the fbi murderers at Waco and a Klan murderer is the color of the mask.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Rehash

    We've discussed this before, but I am of the firm belief a hostage situation is the ONLY REASON for a no-knock, or 'raid.'

    No let-me-see-warrant = gunfight.

    no-knock warrant = gunfight.

    Yelling 'we have a warrant' and then banging down the door or forcing your way in = gunfight.

    Showing me a hand-written warrant, not signed by a judge and citing the patriot act = gunfight.

    You need to show me a warrant. It needs to be typed and signed by a judge.

    btw doublethreaded
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...highlight=fake

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Had not seen that quote from Cooper before. How true. The only difference from the fbi murderers at Waco and a Klan murderer is the color of the mask.
    The quote is from Coopers Commentaries.

    One of my favorites is : “One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time.”
    http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/

    Download them and save them - all worth reading.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Thanx for the link. I generally enjoy and agree with the good Lt Col.

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    I like this one:

    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    we've discussed this before, but i am of the firm belief a hostage situation is the only reason for a no-knock, or 'raid.'

    no let-me-see-warrant = gunfight.

    No-knock warrant = gunfight.

    Yelling 'we have a warrant' and then banging down the door or forcing your way in = gunfight.

    Showing me a hand-written warrant, not signed by a judge and citing the patriot act = gunfight.

    You need to show me a warrant. It needs to be typed and signed by a judge.

    Btw doublethreaded
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...highlight=fake
    this , everyone !!!!!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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