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Fake FBI agents try to break into occupied home

Ruger

Ruger

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eye95

eye95

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These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
 
Ruger

Ruger

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eye95 said:
These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
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I figured that you would say something like that. A couple things in response:

1. You didn't watch the video - I can tell. The surveillance video shows that the "agents" did not knock. They immediately attempted to gain entry.

2. I am not suggesting that we eliminate warrants that require announcement.

3. As for this not pertaining directly to OC, you are correct. However, this pertains directly to self-defense, and the law, which are often discussed on this site. I'm sorry that this post does not meet your personal quality standards. Please feel free to post that you are "moving along", as you are so apt to doing.
 
eye95

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Ruger said:
I figured that you would say something like that. A couple things in response:

1. You didn't watch the video - I can tell. The surveillance video shows that the "agents" did not knock. They immediately attempted to gain entry. The family reported hearing them announce themselves. Therefore, they were not faking a no-knock warrant.

2. I am not suggesting that we eliminate warrants that require announcement. I didn't say that you did. Let me make the point more bluntly: Since they were not faking a no-knock warrant, this story does not support a contention against no-knock warrants.

3. As for this not pertaining directly to OC, you are correct. However, this pertains directly to self-defense, and the law, which are often discussed on this site. I'm sorry that this post does not meet your personal quality standards. Please feel free to post that you are "moving along", as you are so apt to doing Had you made self-defense the point of your post, then it would have been on-topic. As your point is to rail against no-knock warrants, it is not on the topic of OC. I thought I had made that point in my original answer. Since I am now having to be repetitive, it is time to move on..
Click to expand...

My responses are in blue.
 
Ruger

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I'm going to try to make this really simple.... The reason this supports my belief that no-knock warrants should be eliminated is because of the increased opportunity for criminals posing as LEOs to exploit people. I am providing a real example that shows that there ARE people out there who attempt to gain illegal entry into an occupied home under the guise of being LEOs.

The guys announced themselves as FBI at some point - as they were already in the act of attempting to gain entry. The video clearly shows that these men were trying the handle of the door as soon as their feet hit the porch - they never gave the homeowner opportunity to come to the door first. Had the door not been locked, they would have been inside instantly - that's close enough to feigning a no-knock warrant as far as I'm concerned.
 
SaintJacque

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eye95 said:
These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
Click to expand...

Given the frequency with which we encounter LEOs I would argue that anything dealing with LEO policies on public interaction is on topic.
 
Thundar

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eye95 said:
BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.
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I poster this in the "True Tales of Self Defense" Section earlier today. Definately on topic there.

This poses a very significant dilemma for gun owners. Geez, I don't want to relive the Ryan Frederick crap all over again, but it is very similar.

No-knock and home assaults by police are inherintly dangerous for all involved. In MacDonald the Supreme Court reaffirmed the justified use of force against evil doers, even if they are government evil doers. The problem is how does the homeowner know in advance whether the home invasion is the service of a warant or the beginning of a drug thug rampage?
 
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eye95

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Thundar said:
I poster this in the "True Tales of Self Defense" Section earlier today. Definately on topic there.

This poses a very significant dilemma for gun owners. Geez, I don't want to relive the Ryan Frederick crap all over again, but it is very similar...
Click to expand...

As you quoted, I pointed out that discussion of the homeowner using his gun for self-defense would be on-topic.
 
rodbender

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eye95 said:
These criminals were not faking a no-knock warrant. They falsely announced that they were FBI. So, let's eliminate warrants that require announcement too.

BTW, what does the facet of the story that you highlighted have to do with open carry? Now, if we were to discuss the homeowner getting his gun, that would be on-topic.

As you quoted, I pointed out that discussion of the homeowner using his gun for self-defense would be on-topic.
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Open carry's #1 topic-cop strikes again. Twice in the same thread no less.
 
D

daddy4count

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An ex LEO friend gave me some very good advice once...

NEVER open your doors to the police, Feds, etc. You are under no obligation to open the door no matter what it says on their badge.

If they need to speak with you they can do it through the door or over the phone. Ask for a badge number and call 911, ask to be transferred to a non-emergency operator and ask them to patch you through to the officer by badge number... no need to open the door.

Or ask them which office they are from, call 411 and call their office, ask to be patched through that way.

If they say they have a search / arrest warrant, make them break down the door.

Chances are, even if they are legitimate LEO's they aren't going to breech the door. A search warrant will wait for somebody much farther up the food chain to authorize taking the door. An arrest warrant will probably cause them to wait for you to step outside.

Sadly, opening your door upon request opens you up to impersonators intending bad things. But it also opens you up to getting searched illegally... a cop can say they smelled pot, saw a gun, heard a scream... they can make up just about anything as "probable cause" to gain entry once you open that door.

It's a privacy matter, it's a security matter. Keep the door shut and locked.
 
eye95

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daddy4count said:
An ex LEO friend gave me some very good advice once...

NEVER open your doors to the police, Feds, etc. You are under no obligation to open the door no matter what it says on their badge.

If they need to speak with you they can do it through the door or over the phone. Ask for a badge number and call 911, ask to be transferred to a non-emergency operator and ask them to patch you through to the officer by badge number... no need to open the door.

Or ask them which office they are from, call 411 and call their office, ask to be patched through that way.

If they say they have a search / arrest warrant, make them break down the door.

Chances are, even if they are legitimate LEO's they aren't going to breech the door. A search warrant will wait for somebody much farther up the food chain to authorize taking the door. An arrest warrant will probably cause them to wait for you to step outside.

Sadly, opening your door upon request opens you up to impersonators intending bad things. But it also opens you up to getting searched illegally... a cop can say they smelled pot, saw a gun, heard a scream... they can make up just about anything as "probable cause" to gain entry once you open that door.

It's a privacy matter, it's a security matter. Keep the door shut and locked.
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Sound advice. Thanks.
 
Z

zack991

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Well it is hard to tell who the real criminals are anymore, both are dressing up with masks on now a days anyways. Either way i will treat both the same as a threat.

"Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as 'ninja' ... Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view."---JEFF COOPER
 
Gunslinger

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zack991 said:
Well it is hard to tell who the real criminals are anymore, both are dressing up with masks on now a days anyways. Either way i will treat both the same as a threat.

"Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as 'ninja' ... Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view."---JEFF COOPER
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Had not seen that quote from Cooper before. How true. The only difference from the fbi murderers at Waco and a Klan murderer is the color of the mask.
 
S

simmonsjoe

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Rehash

We've discussed this before, but I am of the firm belief a hostage situation is the ONLY REASON for a no-knock, or 'raid.'

No let-me-see-warrant = gunfight.

no-knock warrant = gunfight.

Yelling 'we have a warrant' and then banging down the door or forcing your way in = gunfight.

Showing me a hand-written warrant, not signed by a judge and citing the patriot act = gunfight.

You need to show me a warrant. It needs to be typed and signed by a judge.

btw doublethreaded
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78017-FAKE-FBI-Home-Invasion&highlight=fake
 
Grapeshot

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Gunslinger said:
Had not seen that quote from Cooper before. How true. The only difference from the fbi murderers at Waco and a Klan murderer is the color of the mask.
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The quote is from Coopers Commentaries.

One of my favorites is : “One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time.”
http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/

Download them and save them - all worth reading.
 
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