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Thread: New Law Makes Carrying Backup Gun Easier

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    New Law Makes Carrying Backup Gun Easier

    I've always read with interest trainers who would urge us to carry a second gun for backup, since it is faster to bring into play than reloading the primary gun once it runs empty. It's also invaluable if the primary gun malfunctions. Mass Ayoob suggests that a second gun is good to have if you want to arm an unarmed companion.

    I've never considered doing so because it would have been too hard to convert a concealed second gun into an openly carried gun when entering an alcohol serving establishment. Now that we can CC in restaurants, the practice of carrying a second gun is back on the table for me. I needed an excuse to buy a J-frame snubbie and ankle holster; now I have it.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    I wouldn't recommend the use of an ankle holster. Use a pocket holster or something else instead. The draw time of an ankle holster is the fastest way to get yourself killed.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I cc a Taurus PT145 Millenium Pro when I OC. It is big enough to OC if you want and I have met members that do just that. I like it as a CC gun since it fits in my pocket. So if you see me OC-ing 99% of the time the Taurus is my BUG cc-ed. I use a Don Hume pocket holster and it fits inside jeans, khakis. It may print a bit in jeans but so what when I am already OC-ing.

    The time to draw vs reload is neglegible in my opinion, but nerves during a life threatening incident may favor the 2nd gun. :-) I like having the 2nd gun in case 1) something happens to the first gun jam etc or 2) my primary gun gets taken away from me, and 3) I can arm a friendly (daughter, friend, etc) if it makes sense.

    I was very happy this law made it through and didn't get killed. Too bad some others weren't as lucky.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    I wouldn't recommend the use of an ankle holster. Use a pocket holster or something else instead. The draw time of an ankle holster is the fastest way to get yourself killed.
    Not to mention it throws you off balance and hits everything you go around if it's on the outside and hits your other ankle if it's on the inside.

    If an instructor tells you it's faster to draw a Bug than reload, demand your money back and run away...very fast because he's either stoopid or mental!
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-18-2010 at 05:54 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post

    If an instructor tells you it's faster to draw a Bug than reload, demand your money back and run away...very fast because he's either stoopid or mental!
    Agreed. Its always faster to reload a gun that is already in your hands rather than acquiring the draw on another gun, not to mention the difference in operation as well as the eternal question, what do you do with the first one? Drop it? Reholster it? A spare mag is always smaller and easier to carry than another gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    SNIP If an instructor tells you it's faster to draw a Bug than reload, demand your money back and run away...very fast because he's either stoopid or mental!
    I think it depends a bit on what type of gun the primary is, where the reload is carried, and how the reload is carried. If the primary is a revolver with a stripper clip for a reload, then I would say pull a second gun. If the primary is a 1911 and the reload is easily grasped from a belt pouch, I would think reloading would be nearly as fast as pulling a second gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If an instructor tells you it's faster to draw a Bug than reload, demand your money back and run away...very fast because he's either stoopid or mental!
    I agree 100 % Peter, doing a combat reload though needs to be practiced; more so for the uninitated. Working the muscle memory needs to be second nature. Having a BUG is nice though. I may have to look at some snubs, even though I never really cared for them.

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    The term "New York Reload" was apparently coined by Jim Cirillo, the living legend of the NYPD Stakeout Squad, in the days when cops all carried revolvers and the cartridges for reloading the gun were carried loose in a pouch. Under those conditions, it's easy to understand why a 2nd gun made sense. But many present-day trainers are still recommending it.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    There are MANY old, outdated "truths" that are perpetuated by instructors. The LE, CC, "defensive/tactical" and even the general military training communities are VERY slow to change, adapt, and modernize their training.

    If these communities were as willing and able to adopt new, modern, and more effective techniques as the "competitive shooting" and "military spec-ops" communities, MANY of these old "truths" would enter the dustbin of history more quickly.

    People like Todd Jarrett (a VERY good IPSC shooter who is now semi-retired and does training for civilians AND military) are trying to bring these more modern techniques--speed reloads with magazines, tactical reloading, shooting on the move, and techniques for transitioning to another gun--to the LE, defense, and military worlds, with a margin of success.

    Look into trainers like Jarrett. There are a LOT of techniques for self defense that can be borrowed or adapted from modern competition shooting--target acquisition, field of fire issues, cadence, movement, and ESPECIALLY reloading are all things that the competitive is DECADES ahead of most "real world" training programs on--including LE, CC and the general military training.

    But its an uphill battle. Some of these "truths" are so old, and so ingrained in the "self defense instructor world" that it will literally take an entire generation for them to be purged from the training practices. The idea that it's easier to grab a BUG than reload a modern semiauto is simply foolish on MANY levels, and needs to be abandoned. Putting away a perfectly good 1911 an grabbing a BUG just to avoid doing a reload is just ASKING for trouble in a serious SD situation. The possibility of fumbling one or both of the guns, the time re quired to establish a new grip on a different gun, and issues with recoil and recovery time differences are just a recipe for disaster...

    Carry a BUG if you want. But one or two spare mags for your main firearm are ALWAYS going to be a faster method for getting more lead downrange.

    The only time when a gun-switch would be preferable to reloading your main gun would be if one hand was incapacitated in the fight...
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    As for ankle carry, I think it isn't a bad place for a secondary or tertiary gun and OK for when you are driving or seated, and it's real handy to get to if you are unlucky enough to get knocked on your back. I guess I'm bowlegged or something because I've never had the issue of my J frame knocking into my other leg.

    I often carry an offhand BUG, usually pocket carry or IWB, not to draw in lieu of reloading (I carry 2 spare mags) but in the cases of me fighting a gun snatch, my gun going down (not fixable by remedial action), or me getting shot in my strong arm. I've practiced weak hand only reloads, but I'm leaning towards a New York reload being the better option.

    Another reason to carry a BUG is to arm a trusted other. That begs the question if one has time to arm another do you have time to get away instead? A Virginia Tech or mall shooting scenario would be the kind of barricade situation that arming another makes sense to me.

  11. #11
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    The law is also a boon to people who use alternative carry methods such as shoulder, smart carry, purse, pocket, ankle, thigh, belly band etc. I imagine the sales points of such holsters will have an uptick here because of the new law.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I think it depends a bit on what type of gun the primary is, where the reload is carried, and how the reload is carried. If the primary is a revolver with a stripper clip for a reload, then I would say pull a second gun. If the primary is a 1911 and the reload is easily grasped from a belt pouch, I would think reloading would be nearly as fast as pulling a second gun.
    I was thinking the same thing Citizen. The 44 magnum takes some time, even with the (hard to find) speed loader.
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