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Thread: A girl with a gun...

  1. #1
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    A girl with a gun...

    Okay, so let me start out by introducing myself-
    Hi. I'm Shaman

    I've been reading this forum for awhile and decided to join today to get your opinions on a few things~

    I have never OC'd, but I'm seriously considering doing so for a lot of reasons. My partner doesn't think it's a good idea because it might garner me unwanted attention/trouble. (He is a CC permit holder, but I am not. I would like to get the permit, but money's currently very tight).

    We haven't gotten into a full-blown discussion over it as he fully supports me should I choose to OC, but it got me thinking privately about the kinds of negative attention he might've meant.

    1) I am a 5' tall 100lb 24 yo female person who honestly most people think is around 16 yo. If I were to OC in public (I live in Adams County, not Denver County), am I inviting trouble that isn't worth the hassle?
    (ie: people thinking I'm carrying underage or god-forbid, some jack-hole decides it would be funny to try and get the gun away from the short girl to be an a$$/see if he can/prove a point)

    2) It seems from reading other posts that having a CC permit does make things easier should you get confronted by LE/random folk even if you are well within your rights to carry- should I wait for the permit?

    Thanks for your input- and be gentle- it's only my second post!
    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back" ~Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly ep. "Our Mrs. Reynolds"

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    You never know until you try. Some people have a great experience at Location X. Some people get cuffed and stuffed at Location X.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    If your state allows for OC, then it has been my experience that the reception and treatment you get from the public and LE is largely based on the way you look, and carry yourself.

    If you are young, you are more open to LEO interaction.

    If you are a male, you are more likely to get hassled by the public than a female at any age.

    If you are not white, you are more likely to attract LE attention.

    If you are dressed too casual, LEOs tend to treat you worse. Unfortunately, to many LEOs, people who are dressed nicely, or in fancy cars are somehow worthy of more respect and professionalism. Perhaps it's because they thing that someone in a t-shirt driving a "beater car" probably doesn't have a lawyer on retainer...

    We haven't had many stories on here of females being harassed by LEOs. Then again, many of the women on here are in the 30+ range and white.

    So if you look REALLY young, I'd suggest you learn the law, be willing to stand your ground, and visit a local lawyer who deals in firearms law and be sure to get a handful of his/her business cards. Flashing an attorneys business card can sometimes be an easy way to evoke an attitude change in an "out of bounds" LEO.

    I'd say go for it. Get a nice holster with good retention. Keep aware. If anyone tries to grab your gun, kick them in the nuts and then open your distance by 20 or 30 feet by running away. Although there has NEVER been a reliably reported incident of an OCer who had his gun "snatched" in the US, it's always good to keep your eyes open. If your style of dress allows for it, you might consider a good pair of stylish steel-toed boots...

    More Concealed carriers have their guns stolen than OCers.

    More Concealed carriers are the victims of attempted armed robbery than OCers.

    More Concealed CArriers actually have to shoot attackers than OCers.


    OC is safer--it deters crime by telling the "bad guys" that you are NOT an easy target. If you are carrying concealed, you look JUST LIKE every other unarmed victim to a "bad guy". Who do YOU think the "bad guy" is going to target? This is NOT rocket science, folks...

    Good luck, and my suggestion is to study the law, ask LOTS of questions on this forum, and then just DO IT. Walmart is a good place to start. The "Wally-Walk" is becoming sort of across between a running joke and a legitimate "right of passage" in the OC world. They are big, safe, well-lit stores, and their official policy is to leave legal OCers alone.

    Train, study, and then CARRY.

    Women ESPECIALLY should OC, because it is a POWERFUL statement that you are NOT willing to be anyone's slave, victim,or chattel. By OCing, you are telling the world--in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS--that you are self-sufficient, responsible, serious about your own personal safety.

    IF anyone gives you ANY lip about OCing, first try to educate them, politely.

    If they wont listen to reason, facts, and the law, then ask them why they think YOUR life isn't worth defending against rape, mugging, or assault. That will usually shut them up.

    If they still persist, tell them to go piss up a tree, and walk away... That's what MY sweetie does...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-18-2010 at 06:02 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    All good points, thank you for replying. I appreciate it

    I am curious about your stats on CC vs OC- are those "more likelies" because there are more CCers than OCers? I guess I haven't seen a whole lot of information comparing the two.
    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back" ~Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly ep. "Our Mrs. Reynolds"

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Women ESPECIALLY should OC, because it is a POWERFUL statement that you are NOT willing to be anyone's slave, victim,or chattel. By OCing, you are telling the world--in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS--that you are self-sufficient, responsible, serious about your own personal safety.
    This is true, but there is always some jacka$$ male out there who feels his manhood has been threatened by seeing a woman with a gun. He may ask you " why do you carry that in the open? Somebody might grab it out of the holster. Would you be able to kill somebody?" and other assinine and stupid questions and comments.

    I had this happen to me last week. The guy must be some sort of macho and very insecure as he waited till he had me alone. He knows me, but he doesn't know me. I wasted 20 minutes or so going round and round with his stupid questions, and he still thought of me as, best I can say... "stupid". He is a gun owner and Viet vet, and I now see why he has "charactor issues" to were he can't get a PA LTCF ( his words to me in a previous discussion). He had no idea of PA's self defense laws, or of the "unwritten laws". He sounded more like a trigger happy cowboy.

    Craziest thing about this is that I am not an itty bitty lady nor do I look like "cougar" or "MILF". I'm a little butch actually, though I am not gay. I hunt and trap and like guns. I do taxidermy for a living. Now add open carry to the list. I must be one threatening lady to these insecure men. I even had male game cops practically harrassing me on the trapline. They must have heard about the PA Top Canine Trappers book, and how I was to be in the book. Yes I can kill things.
    Last edited by XD40coyote; 07-18-2010 at 09:26 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    Okay, so let me start out by introducing myself-
    Hi. I'm Shaman

    I've been reading this forum for awhile and decided to join today to get your opinions on a few things~

    I have never OC'd, but I'm seriously considering doing so for a lot of reasons. My partner doesn't think it's a good idea because it might garner me unwanted attention/trouble. (He is a CC permit holder, but I am not. I would like to get the permit, but money's currently very tight).
    Yeah, Colorado CHP is on the pricey side. According to the Adams County Sheriff it's $152.50 plus whatever it costs for training, and they won't accept a Hunter's Safety certificate. It's expensive to go concealed. However, there are places where open carry may be prohibited by a local ordinance; and Denver completely prohibits open carry and unlicensed carry.(1) So what happens if you want to travel to a place where open carry is prohibited by local ordinance? Do you break the law or do you go unarmed, or do you get your concealed handgun permit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    We haven't gotten into a full-blown discussion over it as he fully supports me should I choose to OC, but it got me thinking privately about the kinds of negative attention he might've meant.
    Did anyone ever offer you the advice "don't worry about what other people think?"
    WikiHow - How to Not Care What People Think

    Besides, women are generally less threatening to ordinary people and are known to be less likely to commit violent crimes. I think a woman lawfully and openly carrying a firearm would be warmly received by the public in general. I'd bet even some staunch anti-gunners really just have a problem with men having firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    1) I am a 5' tall 100lb 24 yo female person who honestly most people think is around 16 yo. If I were to OC in public (I live in Adams County, not Denver County), am I inviting trouble that isn't worth the hassle?
    (ie: people thinking I'm carrying underage or god-forbid, some jack-hole decides it would be funny to try and get the gun away from the short girl to be an a$$/see if he can/prove a point)
    What if you're not carrying and someone decides to have their way with you? Defending your life and body is always worth the hassle.

    If you can afford the $40, pick up a Blackhawk Serpa level-2 retention holster; and if you can afford it, carry a backup gun.

    Speaking of money, can you put a price tag on your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    2) It seems from reading other posts that having a CC permit does make things easier should you get confronted by LE/random folk even if you are well within your rights to carry- should I wait for the permit?
    It might or might not make things easier if confronted. I'm not very familiar with the OC climate in Adams County Colorado, or anywhere in Colorado, for that matter. Search the forums and you can read cases throughout the country where police have tried, sometimes successfully, to revoke a concealed carry permit because someone was openly carrying.

    I still defer back to the "don't worry about what other people think." That is, if you're within the law. You're obviously making this choice because you realize that crime happens and it could happen to you. Since you've come to this conclusion, you ought to stop beating around the bush and take responsibility for yourself ASAP. If you can't predict the future, and know when you're going to be in that life or death situation, then can you afford to continue going unarmed? Do you know for certain that you will not be in such a situation between now and when you'd finally qualify for and receive your permit to conceal? Do you know for certain that you will not be in such a situation between now and when you muster the courage to openly carry a firearm?

    I'm not trying to scare you; I'm just trying to promote thought. I'm also not advocating breaking any laws. In fact, I would advocate that you follow all of the laws to the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    Thanks for your input- and be gentle- it's only my second post!
    I hope I wasn't too rough and I hope I didn't come across as a paranoid nut-job either. The world's generally a good place, but spit happens.

  7. #7
    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    one thing to ask yourself before you start carrying is:

    Can you draw your gun and shoot someone in self defense?

    That right there is a very powerful question, and does require some soul searching to answer, so don't be hasty. Don't think about it 24/7, and don't let it keep you up at night, but just take your time and make sure that you know you will be able to pull the trigger if you absolutely have to. If you're religious, pray you don't ever have to; if you're not, hope you don't have to.

    As others have said, check the state forum, and read everything there. Know the law, know where you can/can't go, and get your significant other to show you the book he was given for the concealed carry class, and above all else: ask questions! Don't be afraid to.

    The wally-walk is the best place to start. Their corporate policy is to go by the state law, so if CO is OC friendly, then you're good to go. Start at walmart, and go from there.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

    Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter

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    My best advice is to be completely comfortable with what ever method you feel most comfortable with. If you choose CC, buy a gun designed with CC in mind. As a small girl it will be difficult if not impossible to hide a full sized XD. Also make sure you buy a good caliber. A .22 micro gun is not going to stop someone, 9mm is the smallest I would go. If you choose OC research retention holster options first. I would recommend only a glock style gun in either case. Seconds will determine who walks away, a safety being left on, or hammer snagging could spell disaster. Many prefer a 1911 model for OC. It is the most popular design in America. I personally would recommend a Walther P99AS .40 for OC, and a Walther PPS 9MM for CC. I own both and I can attest to their craftsmanship, reliability, and comfort.

    OC provides a visible deterrent for criminals, but you may be harassed by civilians and LEO's who are ignorant or just plain stupid.

    CC costs money, but you gain the element of surprise. in the summer it can be rather uncomfortable with larger guns. It's all up to you.

    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...03&isFirearm=Y


    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...04&isFirearm=Y

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vector View Post
    CC costs money, but you gain the element of surprise. in the summer it can be rather uncomfortable with larger guns. It's all up to you.
    CC FUD FAIL...

    The ONLY situation where you can justifiably use lethal force is when you are ALREADY UNDER a lethal force threat.

    By definition, the law REQUIRED the bad guy to ALREADY be attacking you BEFORE you draw. Therefore the bad guy ALWAYS will have the tactical advantage through the element of surprise. Period. End of discussion.

    The only "element of surprise" that you get from CCing, is the surprise you're going to get when you are FORCED by the circumstances of justifiable lethal force law requirements to shoot someone.

    CC = GUARANTEE you'll have to pull the trigger, because to a BG, you look the SAME as all the other unarmed "victims" who can't defend themselves, and therefore you look like an "easy mark".

    Please, please, please stop spreading this FUD. This is another myth that CC Instructors spread to justify their existence...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Shaman,
    My daughter was just featured in "Marie Claire UK" Magazine. Here's a link to the article and a pic of the first page of the article. There are some perspectives in the article that may help you. Welcome to OCDO!
    Craig

    http://edsfiles.us/article/girlswithguns.pdf

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Hey Dreamer, I agree.

    I always thought surprise was an offensive tactic.

    Pretty effective if your intent is to kill a man. Sucker him into attacking, then "surprise"!

    However, my intent is to not get into a gunfight in the first place. Don't really know how "surprise" works into that whole "prevention" thing.

    Don't you already have to be in a gunfight in order for "surprise" to work effectively? I keep hearing how "surprise" is better. I personally think deterring a gunfight and avoiding the need for my firearm would be a whole lot safer, but I keep seeing this "element of surprise" being touted as the cat's meow.
    Last edited by Superlite27; 07-19-2010 at 08:21 AM.

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    As far as caliber selection goes...choose the largest caliber you can comfortably CONTROL. As has been discussed here on the forum...ad nauseum...shot placement is more important than caliber. Two shots placed center mass from a .380, or a .22 for that matter...are MUCH more effective at stopping your atacker than two shots from a .44 magnum flying over your assailant's head because you couldn't control your shot. Always remember, also...YOU are responsible for where that round eventually ends up...you want to control it so it doesn't end up hitting an innocent bystander that is beyond your attaker.

    If you know of one, go to a range that rents guns and try out several different calibers to find what is comfortable for you. My wife carries a Ladysmith .357, usually loaded with Hornady .38 +P Extreme Self Defense. She shoots my 1911s at the range; however, she can control the .38 round much more comfortably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    Did anyone ever offer you the advice "don't worry about what other people think?"
    WikiHow - How to Not Care What People Think
    Speaking of money, can you put a price tag on your life?

    It might or might not make things easier if confronted. I'm not very familiar with the OC climate in Adams County Colorado, or anywhere in Colorado, for that matter. Search the forums and you can read cases throughout the country where police have tried, sometimes successfully, to revoke a concealed carry permit because someone was openly carrying.

    I still defer back to the "don't worry about what other people think." That is, if you're within the law. You're obviously making this choice because you realize that crime happens and it could happen to you. Since you've come to this conclusion, you ought to stop beating around the bush and take responsibility for yourself ASAP. If you can't predict the future, and know when you're going to be in that life or death situation, then can you afford to continue going unarmed? Do you know for certain that you will not be in such a situation between now and when you'd finally qualify for and receive your permit to conceal? Do you know for certain that you will not be in such a situation between now and when you muster the courage to openly carry a firearm?
    Thanks for your input. I don't generally care what people think, however, there are valid concerns for anyone who is deciding whether or not OC is for them because it obviously isn't for everyone (my partner has decided he won't OC, for example) and I think it's a personal decision. I would love to see more people OC, but for some reason or other they've decided not to do so.

    I understand "not putting a price tag on your life," but I am not currently in a position to get a CCW permit (as previously mentioned, that's a $150 price tag at least) as that money is better put toward food and the mortgage. Of course I'm frustrated about it, but that's also why I'm considering open carry.

    In Colorado as far as I understand the law it would be quite illegal to revoke a CC permit if someone chose to OC.

    Also- I'm not easily scared, but thanks for your concern! I mostly put the "be gentle" line in as a joke

    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    one thing to ask yourself before you start carrying is:

    Can you draw your gun and shoot someone in self defense?
    I believe I can. I am not new to guns, and I sleep next to an XD-9 sub, which is the gun I would open carry. I think that if you make the decision to defend yourself with a firearm in HD or SD situations you should be prepared to pull that trigger if you have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    get your significant other to show you the book he was given for the concealed carry class
    This is a great idea that I hadn't thought of- thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Shaman,
    My daughter was just featured in "Marie Claire UK" Magazine. Here's a link to the article and a pic of the first page of the article. There are some perspectives in the article that may help you. Welcome to OCDO!
    Craig

    http://edsfiles.us/article/girlswithguns.pdf

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks, Craig! I read that article from elsewhere on this forum actually. I thought it was pretty positive, on the whole

    I agree with Dreamer and Superlite on the "CC as the element of surprise" I've discussed it with a few of people and that's a widespread attitude. I just don't think it's true in most situations where you're going to need your gun.

    AND we can argue caliber all day, but I don't think we should~
    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back" ~Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly ep. "Our Mrs. Reynolds"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    CC FUD FAIL...

    Please, please, please stop spreading this FUD. This is another myth that CC Instructors spread to justify their existence...
    Buddy, If the mugger draws down on you with OC He will expect you to go for your gun, If one CCs He will be very surprised to see a gun instead of a wallet. I support both methods, do a little thought before your next post criticizing me please.

  15. #15
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    the element of surprise
    I get so sick of this "argument". Pirates attack unarmed merchants, not warships. Q-ships not withstanding, you are not out patrolling to seek them out. Most attackers will opt for the soft target.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vector View Post
    Buddy, If the mugger draws down on you with OC He will expect you to go for your gun, If one CCs He will be very surprised to see a gun instead of a wallet. I support both methods, do a little thought before your next post criticizing me please.

    I've done a LOT of thought about this. I've been carrying for a decade in various configurations, and I have CC permits from 3 states. I've worked for the DOJ and been involved with dozens of reports on exactly these sorts of issues. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air--its established fact.

    I'm not criticizing YOU, I'm criticizing the thinking behind this whole "element of surprise" myth. You didn't come up with that idea--it was taught to you by some CC instructor, who is part of a larger community of "groupthink" that has bought into this myth as a way to justify their existence.

    The idea that CC gives you some sort of "tactical advantage of surprise" is a myth perpetuated by CC instructors as part of their effort to appeal to a certain type of person, and as a way to justify their existence. It has no basis in research, no basis in tactical analysis, and no basis in self defense logic. If CC were such a big tactical advantage, then police and military would CC.

    The whole point behind CC has NOTHING to do with "surprising the BG". The entire reason behind CC is that it allows people to be prepared to defend themselves without having to worry about "scaring the sheep" who have been brainwashed to believe that ALL guns are evil. CC is a "workaround" to allow people to carry and yet not cause hoplophobes, Anti's and soccer moms to get all worked up into a lather.

    The only "tactical advantage" that CC provides is as a lure for BGs to lull them into a sense that you are an"easy mark", so you can then exercise the privilege that a CC permit gives you. CC GUARANTEES that you'll have to shoot.

    Personally, I don't ever want to shoot someone. I hope and pray that I never draw my firearm in a self-defense situation. So OC, with the overt visual deterrence it affords, makes a LOT more sense.

    If a mugger attacks someone who is OCing, hes not going to expect ANYTHING, because he's obviously so irrationally insane that he is incapable of critical thinking. I don't buy the "element of surprise" argument. It makes no sense in terms of logistics, tactics, and the timeline of events in such a situation. Someone who is determined to use lethal force in the commission of a crime is NOT going to be "surprised" if you retaliate.


    Please provide a SINGLE documented instance in the US where a violent attacker "drew" on an OCer.

    I'll wait...

    From what I've seen, this has happened ONCE, and that was an event in Wisconsin about a month ago, and that incident has such dicey circumstances that many folks are of the opinion that it was some sort of staged "false flag" event by the "antis" to make OC look bad...


    Now research on how many times a mugger "draws" on a CCer. You'll find that this happens SEVERAL times a month in the US...

    The BG ALWAYS has the element of surprise on his side. CC means you will ALWAYS be working from a REACTIVE mode, which by definition means the other guy has the tactical upper hand. Period. End of discussion.

    I'd MUCH rather have a BG leave me alone altogether because I'm OCing than be forced to shoot someone BECAUSE I was CCing and the BG thought I was an "easy mark". Avoidance or deterrence are ALWAYS preferable to conflict.

    This isn't rocket science, here folks...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-19-2010 at 11:23 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  17. #17
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    I generally OC due to comfort. I can't begin to count the number of people who I've talked to face to face who don't notice that I'm carrying.

    The question that you have to research is: In your State, what is the legal definition of 'concealing'?

    With the number of small handguns available and small holsters you should be able to match the two with your clothing so that legaly you are OC'ing but everything blends to the point that you are CC'ing for all intents. A small flat or matte black pistol in a small flat or matte black paddle or clip holster against a wider black belt will virtually disapear.

    Emphasize something else. I was talking to a very well endowed young lady at a gunshow once. The lady could have walked through the show OC'ing anything she wanted and none of us guys would have noticed untill the next wednesday. (ain't we such pigs)

    Also, look here: http://www.corneredcat.com/ for ideas.

    If you can do it right you may never have to pay for state permission to defend your life.
    Last edited by Wiley; 07-19-2010 at 05:58 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Please provide a SINGLE documented instance in the US where a violent attacker "drew" on an OCer.

    I'll wait...

    From what I've seen, this has happened ONCE, and that was an event in Michigan about a month ago, and that incident has such dicey circumstances that many folks are of the opinion that it was some sort of staged "false flag" event by the "antis" to make OC look bad...

    It was not Michigan; it was Wisconsin. And yes, it does smell fishy.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n-in-Milwaukee


    As for everything else you've said about CC and the "element of surprise" I agree. I gave a lot of thought to it myself, conducted my own research and interviews of knowledgeable people, and decided that CC increases the chances that I would have to draw and use my firearm in self defense.

    That's not to say that things can't or don't change; we can't speak in absolutes because we don't know what the future holds. Criminals evolve to take advantage of people and circumstances and to overcome defenses. Every time people come up with a way to prevent, deter, or defend against a crime, criminals figure out a way to defeat it. At this time, though, OC is a valid deterrent and CC is not. Until there's credible evidence of some negative aspect of OC, besides ostracism and harassment by hoplophobes, I'll continue to do it.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Ed69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I've done a LOT of thought about this. I've been carrying for a decade in various configurations, and I have CC permits from 3 states. I've worked for the DOJ and been involved with dozens of reports on exactly these sorts of issues. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air--its established fact.

    I'm not criticizing YOU, I'm criticizing the thinking behind this whole "element of surprise" myth. You didn't come up with that idea--it was taught to you by some CC instructor, who is part of a larger community of "groupthink" that has bought into this myth as a way to justify their existence.

    The idea that CC gives you some sort of "tactical advantage of surprise" is a myth perpetuated by CC instructors as part of their effort to appeal to a certain type of person, and as a way to justify their existence. It has no basis in research, no basis in tactical analysis, and no basis in self defense logic. If CC were such a big tactical advantage, then police and military would CC.

    The whole point behind CC has NOTHING to do with "surprising the BG". The entire reason behind CC is that it allows people to be prepared to defend themselves without having to worry about "scaring the sheep" who have been brainwashed to believe that ALL guns are evil. CC is a "workaround" to allow people to carry and yet not cause hoplophobes, Anti's and soccer moms to get all worked up into a lather.

    The only "tactical advantage" that CC provides is as a lure for BGs to lull them into a sense that you are an"easy mark", so you can then exercise the privilege that a CC permit gives you. CC GUARANTEES that you'll have to shoot.

    Personally, I don't ever want to shoot someone. I hope and pray that I never draw my firearm in a self-defense situation. So OC, with the overt visual deterrence it affords, makes a LOT more sense.

    If a mugger attacks someone who is OCing, hes not going to expect ANYTHING, because he's obviously so irrationally insane that he is incapable of critical thinking. I don't buy the "element of surprise" argument. It makes no sense in terms of logistics, tactics, and the timeline of events in such a situation. Someone who is determined to use lethal force in the commission of a crime is NOT going to be "surprised" if you retaliate.


    Please provide a SINGLE documented instance in the US where a violent attacker "drew" on an OCer.

    I'll wait...

    From what I've seen, this has happened ONCE, and that was an event in Wisconsin about a month ago, and that incident has such dicey circumstances that many folks are of the opinion that it was some sort of staged "false flag" event by the "antis" to make OC look bad...


    Now research on how many times a mugger "draws" on a CCer. You'll find that this happens SEVERAL times a month in the US...

    The BG ALWAYS has the element of surprise on his side. CC means you will ALWAYS be working from a REACTIVE mode, which by definition means the other guy has the tactical upper hand. Period. End of discussion.

    I'd MUCH rather have a BG leave me alone altogether because I'm OCing than be forced to shoot someone BECAUSE I was CCing and the BG thought I was an "easy mark". Avoidance or deterrence are ALWAYS preferable to conflict.

    This isn't rocket science, here folks...
    " I've been carrying for a decade
    I hope and pray that I never draw my firearm in a self-defense situation
    CC GUARANTEES that you'll have to shoot."

    I've been carrying CC for more than two decades and drawn my gun three times in self defense.Guess what,I never have had to pull the trigger on anyone.....So what does that do for your guarantee mister lawdawg?Live some real life,your facts don't wash well with me.

  20. #20
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    Hi and welcome.
    My take on it is that if you are small and young looking you're more likely to be targeted for attack/rape/robbery/etc. than someone else. The deterent of a handgun might narrow down considerably the number of people that have the balls to attempt it.
    Regardless of what you carry, there are a number of retention style holsters for literally every handgun on the market. While they aren't going to do all the work for you, they will give you an edge in a handgun snatching situation.
    Carrying a handgun is like an alarm system and door locks in your house. You can't make your house burglar-proof, but you can make the crook decide that it is just easier to go rob someone else. Handguns work on the same principle.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Shaman,
    My daughter was just featured in "Marie Claire UK" Magazine. Here's a link to the article and a pic of the first page of the article. There are some perspectives in the article that may help you. Welcome to OCDO!
    Craig

    http://edsfiles.us/article/girlswithguns.pdf

    Click image for larger version. 

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    the topic of this article is retarded. why is it we always have to be labeled as paranoid because we want to rely on ourselves for protection?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed69 View Post
    "
    I've been carrying CC for more than two decades and drawn my gun three times in self defense.Guess what,I never have had to pull the trigger on anyone.....So what does that do for your guarantee mister lawdawg?Live some real life,your facts don't wash well with me.

    If you've had to draw three times, (which would only be justifiable if you felt you were under a lethal threat) then that is three times more than ANY Ocer that I've ever heard of. If you'd been OCing, the BG would have most likely scooted on down the road looking for a softer target. You're CCing was why you had to draw...

    My statement stands.

    If you think that doesn't wash, then maybe the wiring on your washing machine is faulty...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  23. #23
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    I'm 64 years old, 5 ft. tall, and open carry an XD compact .45 all day, every day, everywhere for nearly 4 years. Before that I carried a Ruger .357m.

    In the beginning, a few people asked me if I thought I could shoot someone to save my life.

    I told them "yes, because I already have."

    If you, or anyone would like to read the story of that encounter, look at this:
    The Man I Might Have Killed http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/08/09/22/editor.htm

    <snip>
    A man (or anyone) who attacked me today would face a calm, confident, prepared and VERY well armed woman - any time of the day or night. I would hope that he was able to perceive his disadvantage and just go away.

    Some would, and some would not.

    His choice.

    I’ve already made mine.
    Last edited by MamaLiberty; 07-20-2010 at 01:58 PM.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  24. #24
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marrero jeff View Post
    the topic of this article is retarded. why is it we always have to be labeled as paranoid because we want to rely on ourselves for protection?
    Actually, I think it's pretty pro-2A for a British publication.

  25. #25
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed69 View Post
    .....
    I've been carrying CC for more than two decades and drawn my gun three times in self defense........
    Last edited by fozzy71; 07-20-2010 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Concealed Carry trolls sure are stubborn.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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